Y**u
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 14:09:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
Carl Jung published a lot after this NDE, and this was one of his two major "creative" illnesses he experienced (suffered or blessed). The other one was the deep depression he experienced after his break-up with Freud (several of Freud's former disci
committed suicide after such break-ups.)
Update: I found a link with the same content, but perhaps it's easier to read than the pure text below:
http://www.near-death.com/jung.html
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In a hospital in Switzerland in 1944, the world-renowned psychiatrist Carl G. Jung, M.D., had a heart attack, then a near-death experience. His vivid encounter with the Light, plus the intensely meaningful insights led Jung to conclude that his exper
came from something real and eternal. Subsequently, as he reflected on life after death, Jung recalled the meditating Hindu from his near-death experience and read it as a parable of the archetypal Higher Self, the God-image within. Carl Jung, who f
d analytical psychology, centered on the archetypes of the collective unconscious. What follows is excerpts from his autobiography entitled "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" describing his near-death experience.
"It seemed to me that I was high up in space. Far below I saw the globe of the earth, bathed in a gloriously blue light. I saw the deep blue sea and the continents. Far below my feet lay Ceylon, and in the distance ahead of me the subcontinent of Ind
y field of vision did not include the whole earth, but its global shape was plainly distinguishable and its outlines shone with a silvery gleam through that wonderful blue light. In many places the globe seemed colored, or spotted dark green like oxi
silver. Far away to the left lay a broad expanse - the reddish-yellow desert of Arabia; it was as though the silver of the earth had there assumed a reddish-gold hue. Then came the Red Sea, and far, far back - as if in the upper left of a map - I co
ust make out a bit of the Mediterranean. My gaze was directed chiefly toward that. Everything else appeared indistinct. I could also see the snow-covered Himalayas, but in that direction it was foggy or cloudy. I did not look to the right at all. I k
hat I was on the point of departing from the earth.
Later I discovered how high in space one would have to be to have so extensive a view - approximately a thousand miles! The sight of the earth from this height was the most glorious thing I had ever seen.
After contemplating it for a while, I turned around. I had been standing with my back to the Indian Ocean, as it were, and my face to the north. Then it seemed to me that I made a turn to the south. Something new entered my field of vision. A short d
ce away I saw in space a tremendous dark block of stone, like a meteorite. It was about the size of my house, or even bigger. It was floating in space, and I myself was floating in space.
I had seen similar stones on the coast of the Gulf of Bengal. They were blocks of tawny granite, and some of them had been hollowed out into temples. My stone was one such gigantic dark block. An entrance led into a small antechamber. To the right of
entrance, a black Hindu sat silently in lotus posture upon a stone bench. He wore a white gown, and I knew that he expected me. Two steps led up to this antechamber, and inside, on the left, was the gate to the temple. Innumerable tiny niches, each w
saucer-like concavity filled with coconut oil and small burning wicks, surrounded the door with a wreath of bright flames. I had once actually seen this when I visited the Temple of the Holy Toot at Kandy in Ceylon; the gate had been framed by sever
ws of burning oil lamps of this sort.
As I approached the steps leading up to the entrance into the rock, a strange thing happened: I had the feeling that everything was being sloughed away; everything I aimed at or wished for or thought, the whole phantasmagoria of earthly existence, fe
ay or was stripped from me - an extremely painful process. Nevertheless something remained; it was as if I now carried along with me everything I had ever experience or done, everything that had happened around me. I might also say: it was with me, a
was it. I consisted of all that, so to speak. I consisted of my own history and I felt with great certainty: this is what I am. I am this bundle of what has been and what has been accomplished.
This experience gave me a feeling of extreme poverty, but at the same time of great fullness. There was no longer anything I wanted or desired. I existed in an objective form; I was what I had been and lived. At first the sense of annihilation predom
d, of having been stripped or pillaged; but suddenly that became of no consequence.
Everything seemed to be past; what remained was a 'fait accompli', without any reference back to what had been. There was no longer any regret that something had dropped away or been taken away. On the contrary: I had everything that I was, and that
verything.
Something else engaged my attention: as I approached the temple I had the certainty that I was about to enter an illuminated room and would meet there all those people to whom I belong in reality. There I would at last understand - this too was a cer
y - what historical nexus I or my life fitted into. I would know what had been before me, why I had come into being, and where my life was flowing. My life as I lived it had often seemed to me like a story that has no beginning and end. I had the fee
that I was a historical fragment, an excerpt for which the preceding and succeeding text was missing. My life seemed to have been snipped out of a long chain of events, and many questions had remained unanswered. Why had it taken this course? Why had
ought these particular assumptions with me? What had I made of them? What will follow? I felt sure that I would receive an answer to all the questions as soon as I entered the rock temple. There I would meet the people who knew the answer to my quest
bout what had been before and what would come after.
While I was thinking over these matters, something happened that caught my attention. From below, from the direction of Europe, an image floated up. It was my doctor, or rather, his likeness - framed by a golden chain or a golden laurel wreath. I kne
once: 'Aha, this is my doctor, of course, the one who has been treating me. But now he is coming in his primal form. In life he was an avatar of the temporal embodiment of the primal form, which has existed from the beginning. Now he is appearing in
primal form.
Presumably I too was in my primal form, though this was something I did not observe but simply took for granted. As he stood before me, a mute exchange of thought took place between us. The doctor had been delegated by the earth to deliver a message
, to tell me that there was a protest against my going away. I had no right to leave the earth and must return. The moment I heard that, the vision ceased.
I was profoundly disappointed, for now it all seemed to have been for nothing. The painful process of defoliation had been in vain, and I was not to be allowed to enter the temple, to join the people in whose company I belonged.
In reality, a good three weeks were still to pass before I could truly make up my mind to live again. I could not eat because all food repelled me. The view of city and mountains from my sickbed seemed to me like a painted curtain with black holes in
or a tattered sheet of newspaper full of photographs that meant nothing. Disappointed, I thought, 'Now I must return to the 'box system' again.' For it seemed to me as if behind the horizon of the cosmos a three-dimensional world had been artificiall
lt up, in which each person sat by himself in a little box. And now I should have to convince myself all over again that this was important! Life and the whole world struck me as a prison, and it bothered me beyond measure that I should again be find
ll that quite in order. I had been so glad to shed it all, and now it had come about that I - along with everyone else - would again be hung up in a box by a thread.
I felt violent resistance to my doctor because he had brought me back to life. At the same time, I was worried about him. 'His life is in danger, for heaven's sake! He has appeared to me in his primal form! When anybody attains this form it means he
ing to die, for already he belongs to the 'greater company.'
Suddenly the terrifying thought came to me that the doctor would have to die in my stead. I tried my best to talk to him about it, but he did not understand me. Then I became angry with him.
In actual fact I was his last patient. On April 4, 1944 - I still remember the exact date I was allowed to sit up on the edge of my bed for the first time since the beginning of my illness, and on this same day the doctor took to his bed and did not
it again. I heard that he was having intermittent attacks of fever. Soon afterward he died of septicernia. He was a good doctor; there was something of the genius about him. Otherwise he would not have appeared to me as an avatar of the temporal emb
nt of the primal form.
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Wed Nov 23 14:42:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
Interesting....:)
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 14:59:50 2011, 美东) 提到:
I wonder whether that doctor was consciously aware of his morphing into that
primal form to ask Carl Jung to come back before he died. He might have,
and his last act perhaps was part of his purpose in life.
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Wed Nov 23 15:21:23 2011, 美东) 提到:
en.. speaking of the experience after death, I noticed that the western
people had a quiet different experience with the eastern people, espesically
chinese people. More or less it's related to what you believe before you
die. For example, a lot of chinese people, in their after death report,
claims that they have experienced the hell/heaven like places, which is
connected to our world with a channel, or road, or sometimes a river. Once
you passed that, you are not going back...sth like that..
It happened to my grandpa/grandma as well. According to my grandma, the day
my grandpa passed away, she had a dream that she was accompanying my grandpa
walking into a snow mountain, a river by it, dark this side, but light over
the other. One person walked over them and took my grandpa, said to her
that she has to return.....
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 15:46:24 2011, 美东) 提到:
Thank you so much for sharing such a personal story! I think that your grandma might have felt relieved, although also sad, to have accompanied your grandpa till the last.
My own grandpa was more into IChing, and he knew when was his time to go. The first time he got very sick, he knew that if he got over it, he would be fine for many years; the next time he got sick though, he knew that it was his time to go. With acc
ce, death is not fearful, although grieving takes time anyway.
And, yes, 孟婆汤 and 奈何桥, that's the Chinese saying about it. It might be based on some NDE, and then it became a legend, and such legend further reinforced such beliefs to induce more of such NDEs.
One of Brian Weiss' books talked about the Hell experience that one of his clients experienced. When that client believed so, he saw the horror in the Hell, but once he was told that the Hell was not real, he could instantly dispel that, that's why I
t believe Hell.
What is common in NDE, and many other visions (in lucid dreams, or being momentarily psychic, etc), is the Light, the Love, the all-knowing and all-accepting God, whatever it is called.
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Wed Nov 23 16:05:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
oh...you are very welcome..
en.. Speaking of that, the 意识 is like a hand with five fingers. The
indivuals like you and me are just like the indivual finger. There is only
one existence of hand,but finger, made of 意识, turns out to be too smart to
think they are not connected as a whole, and they are on their own. But
nomatter what they do, there is one hand afterall..
the same metephor can goes to the different parts of the body, and the love
is simple when the hand help scrathing the itching back...whenever,
whererver..
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 16:15:39 2011, 美东) 提到:
I kind of believe that the whole world, together with the spiritual
dimension, whatever is called, is ONE, a connected ONE, a dimension-less,
time-less, ONE, as I have read many people describing it like that, and it
makes sense to me mentally. However, I have not experienced it first-hand,
and I can't say for sure either way.
This reminds me of that Eckart Tolle's comment, "Let's pretend" that "It is
ONE", or "in metaphor" that it is one, so that "one will stay with me". :-)
Most likely than not, it is true, well, that statement "would drive one away
and reason it to be not true". :-)
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Wed Nov 23 16:22:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
En...I believe pretending is the key.
pretending but not cheating. pretending with the most truthful faith would
be the key to be there.
just like in 禅宗, if you say you are not a 佛, you have already excluded
yourself on this particular path. But in another part, you cannot cheat
yourself, claiming to be when not as yet.
pretending, but sincerely...
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Wed Nov 23 16:51:46 2011, 美东) 提到:
感觉这个人挺能炒作的。
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 16:59:08 2011, 美东) 提到:
I see. :-)
When Eckhart Tolle mentions that "Let's pretend that there's no past, nor
future" in the meditation video, he surely knows how the conscious mind
plays tricks, as once a statement is out, the mind habitually wants to
figure out whether it's right or wrong, but being right or wrong does not
matter, it is a way the mind is good at to drive one away from the present
moment.
I believe that all souls are equal to learn in this Earth school, or, each
soul is a 佛 by himself without the need to meet any external conditions.
Regarding this, I want to post a question, why do you think that Buddha
could become a Buddha? Was it due to his hard-working to pursue the Truth?
Or something else? I'd love to know what you think about it. I am also
giving my answer below, and perhaps you can read about it after you are sure
about your answer.
My answer is that Buddha could become a Buddha in that life-time was because
he had learned enough in the Earth school.
I got to know some legend about Buddha's past life from this board, and let'
s take it as true. In his last past-life before that life, he could heal and
re-grow his cut limbs instantly, and that was a proof that he had been
quite advanced to understand the world, the body, etc. He could reach
enlightenment in that particular life time was due to both his past-life
accumulations and his self-pursuit. However, his self-pursuit was also kind
of destined given his past-life accumulations. Without either, he wouldn't
reach his enlightenment.
Similarly, for every other soul, if one could really understand everything
without the need to take the curriculum in the Earth school again, s/he
would get enlightened, or reach nirvana, whatever, to be free from
reincarnation, but there's really no rush. Without taking enough lessons, it
's very hard for one soul to learn it all in one life-time.
Take Sonia Choquette, the famous psychic, for example, she knows that she
had spent many of her past-lives as a priest, and her current life-purpose
is to learn how to be in a family relationship. Some priests or monks choose
to live a life without a family, and they might have experienced family
lives in earlier past-lives. Some people feel naturally drawn to that kind
of life, but it might be just due to a habit from past-lives, and they'd
better learn how to be in a relationship. Whatever life one chooses to live,
there is a purpose, and one life-style is not better or worse than another.
Also, in Brian Weiss' PLR transcripts, many clients have had past-lives in
many different religions, as they needed to learn from all sides. Whatever
religion one claims to be avidly in, that's okay, and s/he might have
believed another religion in another life time.
So the point here is that if one soul has indeed accumulated enough, then
enlightenment, or nirvana, is a natural outcome, and the pursuit of it would
be a true heart's desire, just as how Buddha was compelled to pursue it.
Otherwise, if such accumulation to learn different lessons is not yet ready,
the Earth school is for ever open, and there's no rush to get out of
reincarnations.
Lastly, why is there reincarnation? Why should the soul learn in Earth
school? Based on the messages through channeling or PLR that I read about,
that's because we can feel things in this body format, but souls in the pure
soul format doesn't feel, and the feeling is a precious gift and privilege
to experience it all.
Okay, my answer is finished above, and I'd be happy to learn how you think
about it, especially what disagreement you have about it, or how Buddhism
explains things differently.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 17:00:13 2011, 美东) 提到:
hehe, I should have put his Chinese name earlier. He was indeed famous. :-)
卡尔·古斯塔夫·荣格（Carl Gustav Jung，1875年7月26日－1961年6月6日），瑞士
心理学家、精神科医生，分析心理学的創始者。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Wed Nov 23 17:09:15 2011, 美东) 提到:
所以说能炒作，不然怎么famous?
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wisdomlover (一片冰心在玉壶) 于 (Wed Nov 23 17:12:09 2011, 美东) 提到:
Truestory, I really like your post
regarding earth is a learning school.
"
souls in the pure
soul format doesn't feel, and the feeling is a precious gift and privilege
to experience it all."
Could you elaborate the definition of "feeling" here?
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 23 17:28:31 2011, 美东) 提到:
Okay, my wording is quite colloquial, as what we normally mean in our daily
dialogue.
This feeling I mentioned includes perceptions, emotions, bodily feelings, or
everything we can feel in this body.
I got this notion from reading those books, and it makes sense to me
mentally, so I want to share it, and I'd like to know how you think about it
as well.
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Wed Nov 23 17:51:06 2011, 美东) 提到:
这个Carl Jung估计是个冒牌货。对道家一知半解，就敢讲我们的太乙金华宗旨不是实
修的东东。 就这架势，估计没什么本事，也不可能是证悟者。
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freeman08 (平常心) 于 (Wed Nov 23 20:26:36 2011, 美东) 提到:
不错，我观看。
现在不能花太多时间回复了，要生活。
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Wed Nov 23 23:19:31 2011, 美东) 提到:
荣格可以说是对中国神秘文化了解最多的几个洋人之一了，你居然还贬低他。
这篇文章可以参考。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
一代心理学大师卡尔.古斯塔夫.荣格(C. G. Jung, 1875-1961)与《易经》结下了不解
之缘。在西方学者中，像荣格这样理解《易经》并受到深刻影响的，可以说是绝无仅有
。荣格关于《易经》的论述，非常值得心理学和哲学工作者关注。
一、易经深深地触动了荣格
卡尔?古斯塔夫?荣格是瑞士的一位精神病学家，早年从教于苏黎士大学，并担任苏黎士
大学神经病诊疗所的高级医生。他对东方哲学与修炼极感兴趣，并竭力使它们成为心理
学的研究对象，他的一生可以说是与东方思想不断对话的一生。荣格对学院心理学的研
究有着犀利的批评："大学已不再是传播光明的地方，人们已经厌倦了科学的专业化以
及过分强调理性的唯理智主义。人们渴望听到这样一种真理的声音，它将丰富他们，启
迪他们，而不是束缚他们、蒙蔽他们，它不应该是一片流水一掠而过，而是深深地浸入
他们的骨髓..." 为了这样一种学术理想，荣格对人类心灵更为深入和广泛的领域进行
了毫无遮拦的知识探险。他提出了"集体无意识"这一极具创造性的心理学概念，并从宗
教、神话、文学、艺术、民俗、政治等众多领域收集资料，加以研究，对整个心理学产
生了重要影响。
1920年与一位关键人物卫礼贤（Richard Wilhelm）的相遇，更是给他带来了意外的惊
喜。卫礼贤居留中国长达20年之久，浸润中国风土人情甚深，师从清末大学者劳乃萱，
对中国经典用力极勤，深通中国古代哲学，还将《易经》译为德文，当时被认为是最好
的德文译本。而更难得的还在于，他以传教士的身份却能思求并领悟中国文化活的精神
。卫礼贤帮助荣格更多更准确地了解中国，使中国古代思想成了荣格最有力的援军。从
荣格自己的陈述中我们就可略窥一斑："当我由精神病学和心理疗法开始生命研究时，
我对这个哲学是一无所知，只是后来，我的职业经验告诉我，我在技术方法上已被无意
识地引向了一条神秘的道路，这条道路，东方贤哲早已捷足先登达几个世纪之久了"。
荣格还坦陈："与卫礼贤的交往，我感到受益极大，我从他那里获得的教益比从任何人
那里得到的都要多..." 荣格论文集《东洋冥想的心理学——从易经到禅》一书的译者
杨儒宾教授写道："自从与卫礼贤相遇之后，中国思想的因素明显地介入了荣格的理论
体系，而且终其一生逐日加深，毫无改变。可以说，荣格心理学是由西方心理学通向东
方古老智慧的光辉典范。荣格最有原创性的一些观念，如‘集体无意识'、‘原型'、‘
阿尼玛——阿尼姆斯'、‘同时性原理'、‘能动性的想象力'、‘个体化'等观念，都可
以在东洋思想中找到相应的想法。荣格自己也不讳言：其中的某些观点即根本上受到东
洋思想的启蒙，最明显的例子莫过于‘同时性原理'之于《易经》。荣格对他晚年才敢
公然提倡的这项原理非常重视，如果同时性原理可以成立的话，那么人类建构知识的基
本设定——因果律，即要受到很大的挑战。荣格之所以会这样表白他的雄心壮志，除了
他认为可以从心理分析的案例中获得佐证外，主要是《易经》提供了他最完美的理论基
础及程序运作"。
荣格最早对《易经》展开"全面进攻"是在20世纪初的一个夏季，他决心要弄明白"《易
经》中的答案是否真有意义"。当时，他被自己所见到的"惊人的巧合"迷住了：他发现
答案有意义乃是常例。从1920年，荣格开始在治疗中采用《易经》中所描述的方法，为
病人进行受益非浅的治疗。到1925年，荣格的非洲之行结束，他已经完全熟悉了《易经
》，并对其富有意义的答案毫不怀疑了。关于究竟如何请问《易经》和对所得答案如何
评价，荣格有过这样的描述："我只是将三枚小铜板轻掷空中，然后它们掉下、滚动、
最后静止不动，有时正面在上，有时反面在上。这种技巧初看似乎全无意义，但具有意
义的反应却由此兴起，这种事实真是奥妙，这也是《易经》最杰出的成就"。荣格对《
易经》给予了极高的赞誉："很可能再没有别的著作像这本书那样体现了中国文化的生
动气韵。几千年来，中国最杰出的知识分子一直在这部著作上携手合作，贡献努力。它
历尽沧桑却依然万古常新，永保其生命和价值"。
二、同时性原理与占筮
荣格对《易经》的研究结果表明，在一定的心理状态下通过占筮得出与实际情况相符的
结论乃是常有的事，这与他在多年的个人经验和临床经验中所看到的情况——潜意识中
浮现出的心理事件有时会以意味深长的方式与外部事件相巧合——正好吻合，所以，他
认为正规的占筮活动可以将人的潜意识以象征的形式展现出来，从而显示出心理世界与
现实世界奇妙的对应性和平行性——这是一种与因果律完全不同的联系，荣格称之为"
同时性原理"。 荣格相信，在宇宙大化的漭漭过程中，因果联系不过是事物普遍联系的
一种，此外还有别的联系，例如，万物在连绵不断的时间之流中并排地进行着，其中有
些东西在许多地方基本上同时出现，它们可能是思想、符号、心理状态、某个数字、某
种物品......等等，尽管性质不同，形态不同，却有着相合和等价的意义。由于它们分
属各自独立的不同的时间演进系列，出现在不同的地方，不可能发生因果性的联系，却
有着巧合性的对应关系，荣格将这类现象称作"同步"或"相对的同时性"，认为这种对应
和巧合属同时性现象，受制于同时性原理。
为了说明"同时性"的确切含意，荣格曾经举过这样一个例子，那是他在为一位年轻的女
患者治疗时发生的真实事情，荣格记述道："她尽管做事想扣两端以执中，诸事求好，
结果总是做不到，问题的症结在于她对事懂得太多了。她受的教育相当好，因此提供了
她良好的武器，以完成此种目的——意即一种高度明亮洁净的笛卡儿式之理性主义，对
于实在具有永无差忒的‘几何学'之概念。我曾数度尝试以更合理的态度，软化她的理
性主义，结果证明无效之后，我不得不盼望某些不可预期而且非理性的事情会突然出现
，如此方可粉碎她用以封闭自己的理智之蒸馏作用。某天，我恰好坐在她对面，背依窗
户，聆听她不绝的陈述。前晚，她作了一场印象极为深刻的梦，梦中有人赠她一只金色
的甲虫——一件很贵重的珠宝。当她正对我诉说其梦时，我听到背后有轻拍窗户的声音
，我转过头来，发现窗外有只相当大的昆虫正在飞撞窗棂，试图进入这黝黑的房间。此
事颇为怪异，我立即打开窗户，在昆虫飞进之际，从空中抓住了它，是种甲虫，或说是
种普通的玫瑰金龟子，它那种黄绿的颜色与金色甲虫极为相肖，我将之交给我的患者，
并附数语：‘这就是你的甲虫'。此一经验洞穿了她的理性主义，打碎了她理智抗拒的
坚冰，如今治疗可持续下去，且成效显著。"
荣格将女患者梦中的珠宝赠品——金色甲虫与谈话过程偶然出现的活的"玫瑰金龟子"，
视为是有"同时性"关系的两个事物，并认为这类有意义的巧合事例数不胜数。它们各自
演进而平行，在不同的场境、以不同的方式基本上同时出现，即：意味深长地"巧合"。
笔者依据自己的经验认为，荣格所说的共时性现象确实存在。如梦中遇到某位从未见过
面的人，后来见面时发现那人果如梦中的模样。又如梦中考试的试题与第二天考场上的
试题一般无二......等等，这一类的事情虽然不是每个人都能够遇到，更不是随时随地
可以出现，但某些人关于这类事件的亲身感受也绝非杜撰或虚妄。
荣格认为，同时性现象不属于因果关系，"但他们之间必定存在着别的某种联系"。就是
说，同时性现象的出现一定有它的根源和道理。对此，荣格没能给出周全的实证性的解
释。事实上，这正是摆在当今科学和哲学面前的一项有待解决的重大课题。首先是应当
勇敢地、实事求是地承认这类现象的存在，荣格正是这样做的：他长时期关注这类现象
，并尽可能地给予理性的理解。他说："藉着因果律，我们可以解释两相续事件间的联
接关系；同时性却指出了在心灵与心理物理事件间，时间与意义上都有平行的关系，科
学知识至今为止，仍不能将其化约为一项共通的法则。同时性这个词语其实一无解释，
它只陈述了有意义的巧合之兴起，就其本身而言，此种巧合之发生可以说是偶然的，但
它既然如此不可能，我们最好设想它是立足于某种法则，或是奠基在经验世界的某些性
质上面。然而在平行事件间，却发觉不到因果连接的痕迹，这正是它们所以具有概然性
质的原因所在。在他们之间唯一可以认定，也唯一可以展示出来的环扣，乃是一种共同
的意义，也就是种等价的性质。古老的符应观即建立在这种联结的经验上面——此种理
论在莱布尼兹提出‘预定和谐'之观念时，达到了高峰，但也在此暂告一段落，随后既
为因果律所取代。同时性可说是从符应、感通、与和谐等荒废的概念中，脱胎而成的现
代词语。它并非奠基于哲学的设准上面，而是根据实在的经验和实验而来。同时性现象
证实了在异质的、无因果关联的过程中，盈满意义的等价性质可同时呈现。换言之，它
证实了观者所觉识到的内容，同时可由外在的事件展现出来，而之间并无因果的关联"
。从荣格以上的论述，我们可以得到这样的启示：世界上存在着的各种相对独立的系统
，鉴于宇宙形成过程的统一性，先天就决定它们在功能结构和信息传递上是有同步共振
的关系，因而有可能在这些不同的系统中出现等价意义的事件平行运行。其中包括在人
的潜意识（无意识）中，有可能出现一些意象、思想与外界发生的事件，或别人心中产
生的意象、思想相吻合。然而这些并行的系统毕竟各自独立，互不相同，且没有因果联
系，所以这种等价意义的平行关系只具有概然性质。
在荣格看来，在既有的西方哲学理念中，莱布尼兹的单子论似乎最有利于说明同时性现
象。莱布尼兹认为，构成各种复合物的最后单位是‘实体'，‘实体'本身无广延、不可
再分，故没有‘部分'，是真正单纯的存在，称‘单子'。‘单子'是精神性的存在，有"
知觉"和"欲望"。每一单子都凭其"知觉"而能够反映整个宇宙，就像镜子照物一般。由
于单子的状态不同，其映照万物所形成的"观点"不同，也就决定单子具有不同性质。单
子的知觉水平有高低，因而由单子构成的事物就分出等级。构成无机物的单子"知觉"模
糊，水平最低。动物则具备有感觉的"灵魂"，人更有理性的"心灵"。最高的单子是上帝
，上帝创造了其他所有的单子。依照莱布尼兹，单子之间相互独立，但由单子构成的事
物却相互联系、相互作用而组成统一和谐的世界整体。上帝在创造单子时已事前规定，
令它们在发展过程中自然地保持一致与同步。这就是所谓的"预定和谐"。
荣格同时性"巧合"现象与莱布尼兹提出的"预定和谐"的观念相符合，而"人是小宇宙的
想法"，也"反映了天地间有种预定的和谐" 。所以在荣格看来，"预定和谐"的想法有一
定的道理，可惜的是，在莱氏之后，人们只关注因果必然性，"预定和谐"则被冷落一旁
。同时荣格也强调，他的"同时性"概念，"可说是从符应、感通、与和谐等荒废的概念
中，脱胎而成"，但是，它决非源于某种哲学的设定，而完全根据于实在的经验和实验
。
现在，再回到《易经》。荣格认为《易经》的筮法与占问过程正是同时性现象的体现。
尽管拈取筮草或抛掷硬币以起卦的方法，纯属偶然，但是这并不妨碍所得卦爻的涵义，
与起卦人主观所要了解的事件在性质上相契合。《易经》作者相信，所提取的卦爻是所
问情境的代表。荣格说：同时性原理认为"事件在时空中的契合，并不只是几率而已，
它蕴涵更多的意义，一言以蔽之，也就是宏观的诸事件彼此之间，以及它们与观察者主
观心理状态之间，有一特殊的互相依存的关系"。但是问题的关键在于观察者如何通过"
随机"起卦，却能使所起卦爻的涵义与自己主观所希望了解的客观情境这三者相契合呢
？荣格的回答是："《易经》认为要使同时性原理有效的唯一法门，乃在于观察者要认
定卦爻词确实可以呈现他心灵的状态，因此，当他投掷硬币或者区分蓍草时，要想定它
一定会存在于某一现成的情境当中"。换句话说，观察者只有通过起卦时诚信的心理状
态来实现上述三者的契合，这是"唯一法门"。
四、 同气相求与同时性
荣格反复指出，同时性现象不是因果必然性联系，并明智地认为"它们之间必定存在着
别的某种联系"。那么究竟是什么联系使它们"巧合"？荣格倾向于用"平行""同步"作解
，对深入认识这类现象有积极意义，不过从根本上说并没有超出对同时性现象的描述。
而且，用"平行""同步"则难于说明起卦。他强调心理状态在起卦中的关键作用，则是出
于经验，是正确的。然而，这其中的道理又是什么呢？原来中国人有自己的一套解释，
那就是："同气相求，同类相动"。
中国古代学者早已注意到荣格所说的那种同时性现象，并做了大量研究。许多古典文献
中都有这方面的记载。如《吕氏春秋? 精通篇》写道：
"人或谓兔丝无根。兔丝非无根也，其根不属也，伏苓是。慈石召铁，或引之也。.....
. 圣人南面而立，以爱利民为心，号令未出而天下皆延颈举踵矣，则精通乎民也。夫贼
害于人，人亦然。今夫攻者，砥厉五兵，侈衣美食，发且有日矣，所被攻者不乐，非或
闻之也，神者先告也。身在乎秦，所亲爱在于齐，死而志气不安，精或往来也。德也者
，万民之宰也。月也者，群阴之本也。月望则蚌蛤实，群阴盈；月晦则蚌蛤虚，群阴亏
。夫月形乎天，而群阴化乎渊；圣人形德乎己，而四方咸饬乎仁。"
依据《易传》的论述，《易经》的筮法正是以此种现象为其建立的基础。《系辞下》说
："是故变化云为，吉事有祥；象事知器，占事知来。"意思是一些自然发生的变化、事
象，表面看起来不相关，实际却是另一些事件的征兆或伴随。所以，如果能够破解它们
之间的通报关系，则可由此知彼，彰往察来。"器"在这儿不作器物讲，指具体有形的事
件。《系辞上》也说：
"天垂象，见吉凶，圣人象之。"
天象指日月星辰、风云雷雨，本为自然之象，却能显示人事的祸福吉凶。圣人力求找到
期间的联系，从而由天象以成卦象，由卦象以测人事。但天象现人事吉凶，显然不属因
果范畴。荣格说得很对，《易经》作者关注的不是因果必然性，而是"同时性"。
类似的论述也见于其他一些中国古代文献。如《中庸》写道：
"至诚之道，可以前知。国家将兴，必有祯祥；国家将亡，必有妖孽；见乎蓍龟，动乎
四体。祸福将至：善，必先知之；不善，必先知之。故至诚如神。"
祯祥，指本有今无或本无今有的物象，为吉兆。妖孽，指怪异反常之物象，为祸兆。四
体，指人们的手足四肢。《中庸》认为国家祸福将至，从时人的动作、仪态亦可事前察
觉。《中庸》的这一段论述与《易传》的思想也是一致的。
《易传》作者及众多古代学者对这类并立而通应的现象，并没有从"同步性""平行性"，
更没有从上帝赋予"预定和谐"的角度去理解，而是用中国特有的"气"概念加以说明。前
引《吕氏春秋? 精通篇》所举相应各事，就都是以精气往来沟通来解释的。而《易传》
则提出了"同气相求"的理论，它说：
"同声相应，同气相求。水流湿，火就燥，云从龙，风从虎，圣人作而万物睹。本乎天
者亲上，本乎地者亲下，则各从其类也。" 《文言·乾》
《易传》的这段话很重要，它指出气类相同的事物会产生相动相求的运动。这显然不是
因果关系。而是另外的一种相应相通的作用。这种作用形成一种推动力，使各种事物向
着自己的同类靠拢。所以，《易传》又说："方以类聚，物以群分。"（《系辞上》）"
方"与"物"并称，同指四面八方、各式各样的事物。《易传》认为一切事物类同则相聚
，类异则相分。正如《管子 ? 白心篇》说："同则相从，异则相距。"汉儒董仲舒也说
："百物其去所与异，而从其所与同，故气同则会，声比则应，其验皦然也 ......非有
神，其数然也。美事召美类，恶事召恶类，类之相应而起也。"（《春秋繁露·同类相
动》）
中国古代学者认为，事物之间相互通应的关系，由气沟通，由气推动，受一定客观规律
的支配，并非有什么鬼神作祟。必须指出的是，中国古人所说的"气"，决不同于西方科
学和哲学所说的"实体"或"物质"。由于西方科学的强大影响，一说到"气"，人们就很容
易很自然地想到空气、水气，进而想到原子、粒子，甚至物理场。其实，中国古代学术
所说的"气"完全不同于现代物理学有关物质形态的概念。根据中国古代文献的论述，气
既是物理的存在，同时也是生命的存在、灵性的存在，而且能够携带和表达各种各样的
信息。无论物理的、生命的、社会的、心灵的，各类性质的信息，无论形象的、抽象的
，各种形态的信息，都能通过"气"来传递。总之，气有可能连接各种类型各种等级的事
物，并且具有全面的综合的信息功能，因而能够通过气的作用实现各种水平各种性质的
同类事物的相互召引，相互感通。
"同气相求""同类相动"这种运动形式实质也就是"感应"。《咸? 彖》说："二气感应以
相与 ......天地感而万物化生，圣人感人心而天下和平，观其所感，而天地万物之情
可见矣。"咸卦艮下兑上，艮为刚，兑为柔。这里所说"二气"，指由艮兑二卦所代表的
刚柔二气。但即使阴阳刚柔相感，也必须以和谐同气为前提，否则就不能相感。否卦坤
下乾上，示天地阴阳在某些时境塞而不通，闭而不感。《易传》所说的"感应"，概括的
内容很广。天地万物，只要气类相同，则相感应。感应关系是普遍存在的，是相互作用
、相互关联的一种形式。事物因气类相同而发生感应，由于事物自身的性质不同，感应
之后，继续衍生的结果自然也就不同。天地感应则聚合，聚合而交通，交通而生万物。
圣人以自己的善良、和顺、智慧之气，将万民心中潜藏本有的同类之气感召出来，从而
天下安泰。这也就是为什么圣人"号令未出而天下皆延颈举踵矣"的道理。感应虽然先感
后应，但因为是同类相召，相互合作的关系，所以，不属因果律范畴。荣格揭示的同时
性现象，与《易传》所说的感应关系相通，应该属于感应关系之列。
在《易传》的世界图景中，没有上帝的"预定和谐"。但是，《易传》认为天地万物为太
极所生，以阴阳为本，宇宙从根本上是和谐统一的。"乾道变化，各正性命，保合太和
，乃利贞。"（《乾·彖》）尽管万物"各正性命"，但是它们同由乾道予"正"，因而"保
合太和"，既能相互合作、相互映照，也就能以各种方式，在各种水平上相互沟通。
既然在"同气相求"的作用下，"天垂象，见吉凶"，"变化云为，吉事有祥"，那么由此可
以想象，世界万物的每一次变动，人事的每一次升沉福祸，都必定会有许多与之具有等
价意义的另一些事物相伴而生，如果把它们联贯起来，则会织成一个变动着的可以互相
映照、相互解说的"网络"世界。圣人正是受此启发而"象之"，"则之"，从而创造出八卦
六十四卦和一套占筮的方法。《系辞上》说："圣人有以见天下之赜,而拟诸其形容,象
其物宜,是故谓之象。圣人有以见天下之动，而观其会通，以行其典礼，系辞焉以断其
吉凶，是故谓之爻。极天下之赜者存乎卦，鼓天下之动者存乎辞。"可见，《易经》六
十四卦象及卦爻辞就是一个与宇宙万物生化具有等价意义的象征性模型。
为了了解和预知事物的变化，固然可以去寻找和辨识那些现实生活中发生的几祥祯兆，
但是将万物的复杂变化模拟成六十四卦，如果能够通过诚静的起卦过程将其激活，使它
依照同气相求的原理真的"运转"起来，与现实变化相对应，从而实现"爻象动乎内，吉
凶见乎外"，那该多么方便！
《易传》认为这完全是可能的。创制《易经》的圣人正是这么做的。《系辞上》说：
"是以君子将有为也，将有行也，问焉而以言，其受命也如响，无有远近幽深，遂知来
物。非天下之至精，其孰能与于此？""易，无思也，无为也，寂然不动，感而遂通天下
之故。非天下之至神，其孰能与于此？"
有事问《易经》，则有问必答。注意："问焉而以言，其受命也如响"。这"如响"表明，
之所以能够如实回答所问，不是上帝或其他人格神的恩赐，是依据了"响之应声"的道理
，也就是"同气相求""同类相动"的原理。《易经》这部书，就其本身是死的，无思无为
，寂然不动。但是经问卦人借助起卦过程的感通，它就可以"通天下之故"，"无有远近
幽深，遂知来物"。关键在起卦的过程要能够感通，才能选出与所问之事相对应的那一
卦那一爻。
《易传》解释起卦为"感"，将49根蓍草分二、挂一、揲四、归奇，"四营而成易，十有
八变而成卦"。（《系辞上》）这些动作就是"感"的过程。"感"的目的是为了应用"同气
相求"，将实际可与所问事对应起来的卦爻找出来。所以，表面看起来，即以机械运动
、物理运动的观点看，揲蓍是偶然、随机的动作，但如果从"气"的观点看，起卦并非随
机，更非"神启"，而是"同气相求"的"感应"过程。关于这一过程，《系辞上》说："唯
神也，故不疾而速，不行而至。"意思是，气的作用无形迹可察，其速度之快无法计数
，故称其为"神"。可见，感和应虽分先后，但几乎是同时的。
既然揲蓍是一个"感应"过程，因此，不是随便什么人，也不是在随便什么情况下都能起
卦灵验。问卦人能不能将自己的提问"意念"，通过"气"感应揲蓍过程，再通过揲蓍找到
与所问事相符的卦爻，是需要一定严格条件的。
首先，问卦人要有强烈提问的愿望和信心。从"其受命也如响"可见，问者的意念很坚定
。这一点荣格也注意到了。他说："要想定它一定会存在于某一现成的情境当中"。意念
坚定，发"气"才有力，"感"才能够"应"。
其次，问卦人心必须诚，揲蓍之时当屏除杂念。"是以明于天之道，而察于民之故，是
兴神物以前民用。圣人以此斋戒，以神明其德夫。"（《系辞上》）"神物"谓蓍草和六
十四卦，"斋戒"谓澄静以显湛然纯一、肃然警惕之心。只有这样，才能"明其德夫"，即
贯通主客，明察来事。蒙卦卦辞说："初筮告，再三渎，渎则不告。""渎则不告"，不是
因为得罪了神灵，而是不诚敬之"气"为逆气，会阻碍所问之事与所起之卦连通。《中庸
》也说："至诚之道，可以前知。""至诚如神。"
第三，问卦人要有一颗善良的心，在静谧中，与相关人的心灵相通。"是故蓍之德圆而
神，卦之德方以知，六爻之义易以贡。圣人以此洗心，退藏于密，吉凶与民同患。神以
知来，知以藏往，其孰能与于此哉？古之聪明睿智，神武而不杀者夫！""神武而不杀者
"，指最善良智慧而与民同患的圣人，惟有这样的人才能创造《易经》筮法，也才能最
好地应用它们占问。
荣格深知，问卦是一种心灵（无意识）的沟通，所以关于问卦人的主观条件，他同样非
常重视。他说：
"《易经》彻底主张自知，而达到自知的方法却很可能百般受到误用，所以个性浮躁、
不够成熟的人士，并不适合使用它，知识主义者与理性主义者也不适宜。只有深思熟虑
的人士才恰当，他们喜欢沉思他们所做的以及发生在他们身上的事物。但这样的倾向不
能和忧郁症的胡思乱想混淆在一起。"
"《易经》的精神对某些人，可能明亮如白昼，对另外一个人，则晞微如晨光；对于第
三者而言，也许就黝暗如黑夜。不喜欢它，最好就不要去用它；对它如有排斥心理，则
大可不必要从中寻求真理。"
荣格实际上强调了"至诚"的重要。尤其应当注意的是，他提出"知识主义者与理性主义
者"不适宜占卦。这丝毫不意味《易经》的体系不属于知识和理性，而是说，它完全属
于另一套知识和理性。同气相求和由此产生的同时性现象，不属于因果必然性系统，因
此习惯于西方传统科学理性的人，不能理解占筮，从而会产生怀疑甚至排斥心理。而问
卦所依赖的正是心灵之气的感应，如果以怀疑排斥的心理对待，发出的气必定产生隔断
阻碍的作用，那还怎么可能灵验呢？
四、荣格对《易经》研究的巨大贡献
当众多西方学者视《易经》为"咒语集"而根本否定其价值之时，荣格却郑重其事地宣布
，《易经》是伟大中国科学的"标准著作"。这当然是需要很大勇气的，而且不仅在当时
的欧洲，即使在今天的中国也应当引起巨大震撼。
更为重要的是，他在肯定《易经》科学价值的同时，正确地指出了《易经》所代表的中
国科学与西方科学的根本区别。他提到，《易经》"是地道的中国思维方式的表现"。
说明思维方式决定着人们认识世界的走向和旨趣，对认识层面的选择和认识方法的制定
产生重大影响，从而会形成不同的知识体系。在此基础上，荣格明确指出，中国有自己
的科学，与西方科学相比，它是另一种完全不同的科学。他说：
"几年以前，当时的不列颠人类学会的会长问我，为什么像中国这样一个如此聪慧的民
族却没有能发展出科学。我说，这肯定是一个错觉。因为中国的确有一种"科学"，其"
标准著作"就是《易经》，只不过这种科学的原理就如许许多多的中国其他东西一样，
与我们的科学原理完全不同。"
荣格的这一论断是对"科学一元论"的重大冲击和挑战，而"科学一元论"的紧箍咒至今仍
然紧箍着大多数人的头脑。也许，正是由于这个缘故，才有了著名的李约瑟难题。因为
，人们坚信，发源于古希腊，自欧洲文艺复兴迅速发展起来的西方科学，是人类的唯一
科学，一切科学活动都必须按西方传统的模式进行。正是因此，他们不承认中国传统文
明中有科学，或只承认中国古代有技术，但没有或缺乏科学思维和科学精神，这也就是
中国没有产生出西方近代科学而终于落后的原因。
荣格则根本否定了科学只能有一种形态的观点。他所说的"科学原理完全不同"，是指建
立科学理论的思维方法和认识选择存在根本差异，它们是产生不同科学形态的基础与原
因。荣格进一步指出：
"我们的科学是建立在以往被视为公理的因果法则上...... 我们没有充分体认到：我们
在实验室里，需要极严格的限制其状况后，才能得到不变而可靠的自然律。假如我们让
事物顺其本性发展，我们可以见到截然不同的图象：每一历程或偏或全都要受到几率的
干扰，这种情况极为普遍，因此在自然的情况下，能完全符合律则的事件反倒是例外。
正如我在《易经》里看到的，中国人的心灵似乎完全被事件的几率层面吸引住了，我们
认为巧合的，却似乎成了这种特别的心灵的主要关怀。而我们所推崇的因果律，却几乎
完全受到漠视。我们必须承认，几率是非常非常的重要，人类费了无比的精神，竭力要
击毁且限制几率所带来的祸害。然而，和几率实际的效果相比之下，从理论上考量所得
的因果关系顿时显得软弱无力，贱如尘土。"
我们知道，精确具体的因果关系，只有在严格限制的实验室里才能弄清楚，也只有在严
格控制的条件下才能准确地重复。然而在自然不加限制的条件下，也就是"让事物顺其
本性发展"，那么在实验室得到的严格的因果律则，则不可能以纯然一标准的形态显示
出来，因为在自然的状态下，事物必定受到来自内外环境的多方面因素的随机干扰。所
以，越是在严格条件下获得的越是精准的规律，在自然状态下就越是失去效验。
当然，如果能够通过建立工厂或其他方式，使条件符合要求，严格的因果律无疑可以被
我们利用。当今，现代科学技术正是主要在这样的领域充分地发挥着威力。但是必须清
醒地认识到，在我们生存的这个世界里，人类真正能够控制并允许控制的领域是很有限
的，而根本不能控制，或在长时期内不能控制，或本不应当控制的领域则要广大得多。
这些领域里的事物和变化随时都在影响着我们，关联着我们,无疑须要认识，须要应对
，须要掌握它们的规律。而这些事物正为中国式科学所关注。
荣格指出，西方科学以因果律和实验方法为主要基础，而中国人则着力研究自然状态下
的规律，因而各自建立了不同的科学。这一见解十分精辟。荣格关注的同时性现象，中
国人研究的各类感应，都是在没有人为限制的情境中出现的事物。《周易》经传、孙子
兵法、中医藏象经络学说、气功养生、中国生态农学、中国环境风水学、中国灾害学，
等等，都是对相关对象在自然状态下所现规律的研究。老子说："道法自然。"这四个字
乃是对中国科学精神和中国科学方法的最高概括。荣格准确地揭示了中西科学思维差异
的根本点，这不仅对深层心理学的研究，而且对《易经》的现代研究也具有重大的意义
。
荣格用同时性原理来解释《易经》筮法，强调在揲蓍起卦的过程中，问卦人的潜意识的
调动起重要作用。荣格通过他丰富、可靠的心理治疗经验和观察记录，印证了《易传》
所论"同气相求"，"感而遂通天下之故"的实在性。这为我们从科学的意义上重新认识和
评价中国的气学，以积极肯定的态度去研究心与气的关系，提供了可贵的材料，拓展了
研究的空间和方法，给予了有力的支撑。他的同时性原理启示我们，气学与心学实际上
与潜意识有着紧密的关联，潜意识应当成为重新研究心与气的切入点。
十分明显，《易经》所涉及的博大内容，气的现象与原理，远远不能为同时性原理完全
概括和说明，荣格也只是力求以同时性来解释起卦为何可以灵验而已。但是他睿智地指
出《易经》代表了另一个科学系统，则无疑是对科学史和科学观的重大贡献。
最后还想就"迷信"问题说几句。许多人认为算卦统统是迷信，《周易》这部宝典似乎也
正是因为以占筮为其功能之一而蒙上了灰点。其实，我们既不该将社会上以算命骗钱的
行为与《周易》筮法划等号，也不该将西方传统科学观和哲学观当作唯一正确的绝对真
理。大量事实已经证明，人的潜意识的确有时与现实"巧合"，人的意念的确能够不通过
自己的躯体，不通过有声语言和有形文字，而以其他形式（气）将信息和功能传递出去
，影响它物。近年来，国内外一些科学杂志关于这方面的实验报道，已相当不少。限于
篇幅，恕不赘引。切不可忘记的是，人类认识史已不止一次沉痛地教训我们，如果将某
种科学观念僵化、绝对化，那才是最可怕、最愚昧的迷信活动！这其中的危害很值得科
学工作者警惕，正如荣格所说："假如我们的文明泯灭了的话，与其说是归罪于魔鬼，
还不如说是归罪于愚昧的行为"。（
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 03:52:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
Thank you so much for posting this! I understand him more now.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 03:54:25 2011, 美东) 提到:
这个bdbd估计是个冒牌货。对Carl Jung一知半解，就敢讲Carl Jung is 冒牌货。 就
这架势，估计没什么本事，也不可能是证悟者。
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:12:58 2011, 美东) 提到:
As I understand, Carl Jung explained this synchronicity using his concept of
collective unconscious, as if these common knowledge/intuition/archetypes..
. are embedded in each person as a collective wisdom inherited in human
beings, in a similar way as that the genes are inherited biologically.
Although he could talk to his spiritual guides in his meditation, he didn't
think of them as from outside or another dimension, but from within himself,
this embedded thousands of years old wise man (the collective unconscious).
He could be right, and this could also support the Oneness of this whole
world and beyond. May I know what you think about this?
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:25:19 2011, 美东) 提到:
all people in the world act on behalf of other people's destiny and as a way
of delivering other people's destiny
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:27:28 2011, 美东) 提到:
yeah, I agree with this.
Also, I am surprised that you are online now. I thought that I was the only
one. :-) May you have a great Thanksgiving break!
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:32:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
让我印象深刻的是荣格在这次经验后对尘世的认识--小小的牢笼，每个人被困其中，不
了解在那之前和之后的事情。简直是翻版的电影matrix,和avatar。
我的想象是这样的，有诗为证
乾坤小小蕴雷风
颠沛升沉堪动容
高处一登觉齿冷
绝境似到见途通
空抛笑泪求因果
实是前缘定厉亨
翻覆高低经验后
一般平淡境不同
星汉迢遥今古恨
谁知蹊径在殊途
凡胎难会方外意
仙道唯传无字书
万色似真焉有物
虚空能破便非无
自脱牢笼唯求静
弃智忘心近醍醐
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:33:51 2011, 美东) 提到:
i am almost out of job and am in a job search, another sort of near death
experience
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:40:00 2011, 美东) 提到:
Yes, job hunting can take some time. May your job offer be right at the
corner!
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:42:07 2011, 美东) 提到:
Super Zan!
仙道唯传无字书
弃智忘心近醍醐
Exactly!
With your talent, a job offer will come soon! Best wishes for you!
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Thu Nov 24 04:42:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
i will know when my time comes
thank you and wish you a great holiday!
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Thu Nov 24 08:46:00 2011, 美东) 提到:
瞧你说的，你一中国人，整天认为连个汉字都不认识的洋人，能读得懂古汉语，而且还
引用洋人的话，来说自己国家的道家经典古籍说的是假话的。 你很强大呀！
BTW,你不是不在乎对错，只在乎理由吗？你现在是在干什么？你不是什么都neutral吗？
我没有迷信权威的习惯，道家的东西，中国都没几个懂的，洋人倒是都懂啦，还有能力
评价啦。神呀！
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Thu Nov 24 08:51:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
童鞋，请问你觉得中国有哪个美国通或者欧洲通被西方承认啦？
俺们对荣格童鞋对了解中国文化作出的努力表示感谢，但是作为中国人，俺觉得还是自
己家人更了解自己家的事情。
这个事情也不能完全怪俺呀，谁叫那个truestory, 不先拿出来这篇文章，反而说荣格
讲太乙金华宗旨讲的是什么乱七八糟的alchemist 的东东，不是指导实修的呢？
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Thu Nov 24 08:58:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
对了，还有某人先说死亡很美丽，翻脸就推荐某个洋人自愈癌症，死亡那么美丽，又不
肯死啦。
道家追求长生不可能，需要被打击。洋人自愈癌症就不是追求长生的一种表现。
连自己家祖宗的东东，都要看洋人是怎么评价的。难怪上中文网，一定要用洋文呢。
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Thu Nov 24 09:22:18 2011, 美东) 提到:
BDBD and TrueStory,
你们肿么拉。。。大家开心灌水，总有不小心相互得罪的地方。 退一步海阔天空，
才是仙风道骨， 两位神仙姐姐如果没什么深的过节， 就算了吧。。：） 亲。。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Thu Nov 24 09:35:20 2011, 美东) 提到:
嗯。
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:08:02 2011, 美东) 提到:
Do you know the time sequence of his near death experience and writing
of 'On life after death.'?
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:14:26 2011, 美东) 提到:
Buddha could become a Buddha because there was enough accumulation of karma.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:31:05 2011, 美东) 提到:
Similarly, for every other soul, if one could really understand everything
without the need to take the curriculum in the Earth school again, s/he
would get enlightened, or reach nirvana, whatever, to be free from
reincarnation, but there's really no rush. Without taking enough lessons, it
's very hard for one soul to learn it all in one life-time.
-------
Here you set by default that enlightenment/nibanna is an assumed achievable
destiny for each soul, and you gave a direct casual relationship of lessons
in earth school with enlightenment.
But why must this be true?
Take Sonia Choquette, the famous psychic, for example, she knows that she
had spent many of her past-lives as a priest, and her current life-purpose
is to learn how to be in a family relationship. Some priests or monks choose
to live a life without a family, and they might have experienced family
lives in earlier past-lives. Some people feel naturally drawn to that kind
of life, but it might be just due to a habit from past-lives, and they'd
better learn how to be in a relationship. Whatever life one chooses to live,
there is a purpose, and one life-style is not better or worse than another.
---------
Why and how can we choose which kind of life we will live when we are dying?
Also, in Brian Weiss' PLR transcripts, many clients have had past-lives in
many different religions, as they needed to learn from all sides. Whatever
religion one claims to be avidly in, that's okay, and s/he might have
believed another religion in another life time.
----------
Why must we learn through different lives from different forms of religion?
So the point here is that if one soul has indeed accumulated enough, then
enlightenment, or nirvana, is a natural outcome, and the pursuit of it would
be a true heart's desire, just as how Buddha was compelled to pursue it.
Otherwise, if such accumulation to learn different lessons is not yet ready,
the Earth school is for ever open, and there's no rush to get out of
reincarnations.
----------
Here one point is missed, not all souls wish to achieve enlightenment,
most even do not know what enlightenment is. Likewise nibbana, which is
really not so easy to understand from reading books.
We are almost all driven by karma.
Lastly, why is there reincarnation? Why should the soul learn in Earth
school? Based on the messages through channeling or PLR that I read about,
that's because we can feel things in this body format, but souls in the pure
soul format doesn't feel, and the feeling is a precious gift and privilege
to experience it all.
---------
In your logic as far as I understood, firstly you gave a meaning of souls to
stay in earth school, learning.
But why?
'that's because we can feel things in this body format, but souls in the
pure soul format doesn't feel, and the feeling is a precious gift and
privilege to experience it all.' This reason seems not convincing for me,
more like a meaning we human being add.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:35:54 2011, 美东) 提到:
I cannot understand what you said,
Pretending is the key for what?
Even in 禅宗, we are not 佛 at the moment, but we have the potential to
become 佛? Am I excluding myself from the particular path?
When we are not 佛, we are not. It is a reality. Quite fine.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:38:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
'Synchronicity, collective unconscious' by Jung
should be interesting to read.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:39:00 2011, 美东) 提到:
You did not understand half of what I said, but instead you inserted what
you thought as what I said.
I have never said that 自己国家的道家经典古籍说的是假话, I told you that all
people die, including you. And, I told you that our health is related to
our thoughts and emotions, which we can actively change to reach a healthy
state. This body is like a cloth you put on in this life time, and there's
no need to be fixated on that.
However you understand, that's your business.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:40:38 2011, 美东) 提到:
You don't understand the word of alchemy and how Carl Jung meant by it. Carl
Jung meditated constantly, and he gained many insights to put into his
theory through meditation and his talks with his spiritual guides in his
meditation.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:42:11 2011, 美东) 提到:
I have never taken offense in what bdbd said, and I wished that she could
understand me more. However, whether she understands or not is her business,
which I can't really control.
Happy Holiday to everyone, though!
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:44:08 2011, 美东) 提到:
What is karma? Have you accumulated enough karma? How do you know?
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:51:27 2011, 美东) 提到:
In my understanding, karma is the lesson one needs to take, in this Earth
school, and it's neither a reward, nor a penalty.
Hi, JeanIris, you seem to have deleted your response or something that I
couldn't answer right now. My answer is above.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:51:47 2011, 美东) 提到:
I accept the idea of karma, if you like you can check by yourself, since I
also understand it by myself mostly.
A simple example of karma, we are what we did, and what we are doing now
will determine what we will be in the future.:-)
I do not think I have accumulated enough.
The contents of karma are varied, can be good, bad or neutral, and how to
understand it depends on which aspect of it you want to understand.
I learned this word from Buddhism, and accepted the critical role of it in
Buddhism.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:52:43 2011, 美东) 提到:
sorry, I added sth more.
just check!
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freeman08 (平常心) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:53:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
有时候我觉得bdbd同学好像有好几个程序在运行，
如果她突然切换程序。就能让人大吃一惊。 呵呵。
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:54:47 2011, 美东) 提到:
What I learned from you on this board is that giving more understandings to
others, thanks!
:-)
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:57:11 2011, 美东) 提到:
禅宗的一个特色就是不能否定自己是佛，如果先有了这个认知， 就已经是障道因缘了
。禅宗强调的是顿的认识， 和渐的过程。 所谓顿的认识， 就是在认识上要直接到那
个地方。举的类似的例子， 就好像， 一个人在水下很深的地方， 如果不游上去， 就
会被溺死。 他当然要一点点游上去， 但是他在往上游的时候， 必须保持最大的求生
的信心， 也就是人虽然在水下, 他的心必须要在水面上， 不能考虑其它任何的过程，
才能保证最快和最大的机会。。
reality is also what we think and what we need to break.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 10:59:05 2011, 美东) 提到:
So I won't choose 禅宗. The logic in 禅宗 does not fit my thinking habits.
But I like zen. :p
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freeman08 (平常心) 于 (Thu Nov 24 11:13:28 2011, 美东) 提到:
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Thu Nov 24 11:16:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
No probem.. You will be there anyways...:)
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Thu Nov 24 11:55:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
Sorry, I missed this post..Let me take a look..the question is why do you
think that Buddha can become Budda?
En...I think firstly it because he, like anyone else, has the potential to
become a Budda. It's like a seed planted, and with certain condition, it
surely will flourish one day. According to the Budda, everyone has the seed,
and everyone will eventually be there. But speaking of the last one, why is
him, not Y is U, or not Y is me..
I think the most imporant difference between he and us is the WILL.
And also how strong the will is to know the truth, to practice, and to get
there.
The inital will is so strong that it supports practise over the countless
lifes and the practice on the way reversely make the will stronger, making
it a healhty progressing.
Those who think he has not been improved over years should check the will
first, is that strong enough. Like the exmaple I mentioned in another post,
sth like a person's will to get above the water.
I believed he has undergone much much more practices and tests than us in
all his lifes. looks like that's the reason, but that could be a result at
the same time too..
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Yisu (大头教主) 于 (Thu Nov 24 12:10:57 2011, 美东) 提到:
我来插两句啊 ：）
常生不老理论上是可能的， 至少在一定范围内肯定是可能的。 现在的人就是生活条件
好了一些， 人人都活到八九十了。。要是放在古代，了不得啊。。
道家讲究精气神的平衡，就好像我们把汽车好好保养，里面常换油， 外面常打蜡， 就
会多开一些年。 人体也是一样。心念和物质变化是对应的， 道家的人通过固守心意来
减缓或停止物理变迁是有可能的。 但是这个是有代价的， 就是不能放松， 得一直去
做。。活上几千年， 突然厌了， 也就不想再为这个皮囊废尽了。
不过我理解的道家，常生也只是个付产品， 不是目的， 对道的终极追求才是真的。。。
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 12:19:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
Really thanks a lot for your good memory. :P
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 12:23:42 2011, 美东) 提到:
What I adapted from wiki. :-)
Karma (Sanskrit, also karman, Pāli: Kamma) means "action" or "doing";
whatever one does, says, or thinks is a karma. In Buddhism, the term karma
is used specifically for those actions which spring from the intention (
Sanskrit: cetanā, Pali: cetana) of an unenlightened being.
These bring about a fruit (Sanskrit, Pali: phala) or result (S., P.: vipāka
; the two are often used together as vipākaphala), either within the
present life, or in the context of a future rebirth. Other Indian religions
have different views on karma. Karma is the engine which drives the wheel of
the cycle of uncontrolled rebirth (S., P. saṃsāra) for each being.
In the early texts it is not, however, the only causal mechanism influencing
the lives of sentient beings.
As one scholar states, "the Buddhist theory of action and result (karmaphala
) is fundamental to much of Buddhist doctrine, because it provides a
coherent model of the functioning of the world and its beings, which in turn
forms the doctrinal basis for the Buddhist explanations of the path of
liberation from the world and its result, nirvāṇa."
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Thu Nov 24 12:43:48 2011, 美东) 提到:
Here I just add more about my personal experiences why I accept the doctrine
of karma and dependent origination in Buddhism.
It was about 5 years ago, in my daily life I really found that what I am
doing today will profoundly influence what will happen on me tomorrow (in
the future). If I want to realize sth in the future, I must do sth today for
that. How hard I put my efforts today determines to which extent I can
realize that.
We can take a close look on the actions of IDs on this board. What we reply
in our posts and also the attitudes exemplified will obviously result in how
other IDs respond to them. These are only some dependent originations we can
find, let alone the others more complicated and difficult to understand by
our traditional well-established spatial and temporal reasoning way.
Karma is not "lessons", and not equal to lessons.
I like this sentence very much,
In the Upajjhatthana Sutta (AN 5.57), the Buddha states:
"I am the owner of my karma. I inherit my karma. I am born of my karma. I am
related to my karma. I live supported by my karma. Whatever karma I create,
whether good or evil, that I shall inherit."
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Thu Nov 24 22:54:12 2011, 美东) 提到:
有时候我会有预感，这种预感往往是突然产生的，感觉自己做了一个决定后，生活会有
重大的事情发生，但我事先不知道会是什么样的事情。至少两次重大的人生转折验证了
我的预感，似乎命运在等着我做这么个决定，然后才向我展示我的下一个方向。
按照量子力学的理论，这个世界有无数的历史和无数的未来，我们看得到的历史只是我
们的时空（我觉得其实是我们的根性）决定的那一种。我们现在的决定改变历史（虽然
不是我们看到的那个历史，而是我们看不到的那些），从而对可能实现的未来产生影响。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Fri Nov 25 08:38:49 2011, 美东) 提到:
对，那都是我的错，你都对。 你哪里能有错呢？ alchemy字典怎么定义，别人就是怎
么理解的。 你偏要来个carl Jung的定义。 还怪别人不理解你。 你没说清楚误导他人
理解Car Jung对道家的理解。 不先自己总结总结，先来怪别人？？？
如果是别人我就算啦。但是像你这种整天自诩又是从来不在乎对错，对什么事情都很
neutral的。我就比较好奇啦。
放一下狗， alchemy: 炼金术！吕洞宾是炼金的呀？？？？？？？吕洞宾已经死啦？？
？？？
你问问道家谁会说吕洞宾死啦？？？？？？你污蔑道家的神仙都死啦，你跟说上帝死啦
，有什么差别？？？？你去跟freeman讲，青海无必死无疑呀？？？？？怎么不去说？
太乙金华宗旨就是指导人实修从而长生不死的总纲！我高兴相信吕洞宾，我向长生不死
努力，碍着你什么事呀？？？？我又没有拦着你，让你自然死亡。我愿意永生，你就左
一个，你迟早要死，又一个你迟早要死的。
还是一句话，不就是你都对，别人都错吗？
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Fri Nov 25 08:45:40 2011, 美东) 提到:
LOL!
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Fri Nov 25 09:09:21 2011, 美东) 提到:
:)。 对的。 还是Yisu姐姐懂。大致就是这个意思。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Fri Nov 25 09:21:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
I see. 诗写得很不错呀。 有你给荣格背书，我相信他还是懂道家文化，并且尊重道家
文化的。 我记得你，你还是蛮懂的。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Fri Nov 25 09:31:13 2011, 美东) 提到:
切，人家每次说你家是外道，你还不是气得要死？ 他现在污蔑吕祖死啦，然后又说吕
祖在真经里面说长生不死不是真的。然后又诅咒我修道不成，必然如凡人一样死去。
这么恶毒！ 我再不开口，你觉得还像我吗？
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Fri Nov 25 21:55:00 2011, 美东) 提到:
我不过是拾人牙慧。我觉得荣格是懂道家文化，并且尊重道家文化的，因为他是一个意
识到西方文化的缺陷所以思想很开放的学者。我如果时间顺序没搞错的话，他在游历非
洲几年，到处寻访原始宗教，从而得出集体无意识概念之后才接触到东方神秘文化，感
觉眼界大开。至于荣格有没有实修道家丹法，我估计是没有。不过跟荣格在周易上合作
过的卫礼贤（Richard Wilhelm）应该是道家内丹的实修者，因为卫礼贤得以认识劳乃
宣，而劳乃宣是清末著名的声韵学家，同时又是有成的道学家，就是他帮助卫礼贤（
Richard Wilhelm）翻译了太乙金華宗旨（好像英文书名叫金花的秘密），而此书对对
荣格产生了巨大影响。卫很可能在劳的指导下修炼过内丹之法。
话说回来，这个世界的法门不止一个。荣格虽然没有修道，但他对人类意识心理的研究
没准也是一种法门。我觉得荣格晚年已经具有某种类似于神通的功能，能够预见未发生
的事物。研究心理学到了这个境界，是不是说明这个世界跟人的思想意识有着密切的联
系？ 不由得想起这句话，万物皆由心生，这个世界是唯心的。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Sat Nov 26 08:18:29 2011, 美东) 提到:
这个俺信。俺觉得meditation可以导致一些神通现象在佛道两家都有。研究心理学研究
到这个地步，的确让人敬佩，尤其是西方人，就更加难得。Anyways,这个班上就没有几
个道家内丹的修炼者。大侠如果是个中高手，千万不要藏私呀。 感兴趣的人还是很多
的。
BTW,祝你找个好工作。
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freeman08 (平常心) 于 (Sat Nov 26 20:49:21 2011, 美东) 提到:
总觉得还是要加一句，以免别人误认我在回到人天善法。
因缘所生法，我说即是空，亦名是假名，亦是中道义。
积善所得，应该属于 因缘所生法。所以从根本上是空。
只有知空知有不落两边，才能算是中道。
如果执着其实有，就变成人天善法。
如果执着其空无，又变成断灭见。
总是要平衡。
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Mon Nov 28 12:26:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
Now I finally understand what you are angry about.
Okay, I don't mean 恶毒 to say that all people die. What I say is a
statement, which is neutral. Let me explain how it's neutral. You take it as
a curse, but I take it as a fact, a consoling fact, to accept the reality,
say, for normal people I know. The statement itself does not solicit
anything, it is just a statement, but your thought that you are surely on
your way to be/become a 神仙 brings out the anger in you towards my saying
that statement.
Would 吕祖 be angry if I say that he's dying one day? If he truly is not
dying, he'd just ignore my statement, as he wouldn't care.
Anger is a very indicative emotion on the underlying thought.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Mon Nov 28 12:42:22 2011, 美东) 提到:
I agree with this, too. There are many ways to stay much healthier, and 道家
might be a leading genre in that.
It's new for me to hear that it's possible that "活上几千年， 突然厌了， 也
就不想再为这个皮囊废尽了。"
Also, I fully agree that no matter it's a much better health, or other
miracles, none of them are the ultimate goal, but just side-products.
And for that ultimate Truth, I tend to believe that it's One, no matter what
way people take.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Mon Nov 28 12:50:02 2011, 美东) 提到:
Thanks for this explanation, and I think that we are talking about different
aspects on how this world runs.
I agree with you on the consequences of certain actions, and I regard such
consequences as neutral, rather than condemning or rewarding in nature. When
we learn the consequences through experiences, we know whether certain
action would bring certain feelings inside. Every event in my life is a
lesson for me to learn how to listen to my heart to reach a peaceful
decision.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Mon Nov 28 14:43:15 2011, 美东) 提到:
I do not think these are different aspects of how the world is running.
They are different explanations about how the world is running.
Without the basis of karma there are no dependent origination, samsara and
etc in Buddhism.The consequences are not only neutral, some are, many
others are not. The relationship between certain action and certain feelings
are not so easy to understand, some are quite complicated.
I will not take every event in the life as a lesson, I take it as a chance
to understand and practice better the principles of Buddhism, to reach
Nibbana although it is quite difficult. There is a term in Buddhism quite
similar as what you said-如理做意, but it is much more accurate and broader
in meaning than listening to your heart to reach a peaceful decision. There
are clear standards in Buddhism to instruct us behave better bodily and
mindly.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Mon Nov 28 16:19:22 2011, 美东) 提到:
I think that it's good place that we reserve our opinions here, as they are
clear now.
The explanations on how the world is running have already assumed a modeling
of the world, which may not be even explainable by words, as the words are
limited. It's totally fine whatever theory sits well with each person to
help him/her see this world.
There's still something else that I have not answered earlier, regarding
your questions on my answer why Buddha became Buddha at that life-time.
What I explained there did not assume anything as absolute or a must. I was
listing the evidences that people had encountered using human consciousness.
Are those true for you? Only each person can find it out for himself/
herself.
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Mon Nov 28 16:22:50 2011, 美东) 提到:
Of course. Without an open mind, there will be no real communication.
I stop here.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Mon Nov 28 16:44:23 2011, 美东) 提到:
Why do I want to laugh? Do you imply that I do not have an open mind, and
yet you dare to speak this out loud? I'd rather you being completely open on
your emotions, and I am better off with that honesty.
I said that we could stop there because I see what it is as neutral, but you
disagree, and we have touched upon this topic earlier as well. It is a
different way to view this world, and I don't want you to go my way, nor is
your explanation making sense to me to go another way.
Do you want to continue on this topic further? If so, could you give me some
examples on what karma is neutral, what karma is good, and what karma is
bad?
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JeanIris (Iris) 于 (Mon Nov 28 17:10:23 2011, 美东) 提到:
When I was saying in that way, I had no emotional inclination.
I just found it is meaningless to communicate here. Not only because we have
totally different opinons, but also and most importantly we have different
thinking habits and knowledge background.
Without an open mind, we even would not like to read the words in the reply
of others carefully. As for me, if here is any word new for me I will try to
understand its exact meaning instead of ignoring it.
I questioned the logic in your previous post, not the evidences you gave.
I will not continue on this topic, just telling you how I felt.
If you felt being offended, I say sorry.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Mon Nov 28 17:20:17 2011, 美东) 提到:
My logic was that I didn't imply "absolute" anything, and yet you inserted "why MUST it be true"? It may or may not be true, and ultimately, nothing is true, as it is just what it is, not true nor false, not right nor wrong.
What is your logic? I don't quite get that.
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Mon Nov 28 20:48:23 2011, 美东) 提到:
我也非常neutral的make 一个statement. You have to accept the reality. 你必然
迟早有一天死亡。我将来死不死，你不知道。 我一点也没有angry. 你如果有幻想他人
有angry的问题，你需要好好反省一下。。。。。。LOL!
BTW,一个statement是不是neutral不是你说了算的。 我觉得you have serious
problem of trying to make others agree with you. 估计是不够confident造成的，
试想如果你真确定，这么着急干什么呢？ 我这个statement也是非常neutral的。太
neutral啦。。。。LOL!
我相信你说的那个癌症自愈的人曾经也有人像你那样跟他说，你会死的，但是人家活啦
！吕祖没有死，很多神仙没有死，所以我就非常可能不会死。 你说我肯定会死，只是
你的个人观点，不是事实。这个个人观点，反映了你的一些品质。
总之，你会如你所说的一样自然死亡。你不说，我也知道啦。
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dancooper (诚能见可欲而思谦冲以自牧) 于 (Mon Nov 28 21:04:43 2011, 美东) 提到:
无量寿福，火气还这么大
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Mon Nov 28 21:07:17 2011, 美东) 提到:
她已经说啦，她不跟你玩啦。。。。。。You did not get it........
但是我可以陪你玩的。
你的意思是说，我不会死，并且必然成仙 就是一个 fact. 八仙过海就是what it is吗
？ 我同意啦。我非常neutral的同意啦。 谢谢你的支持。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Mon Nov 28 21:26:27 2011, 美东) 提到:
你真看走眼啦。我就是闲着没事，逗她玩的。。。。。我看她也很喜欢玩的样子。。。。
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nibbana (卍) 于 (Mon Nov 28 22:04:08 2011, 美东) 提到:
不介入你们的讨论，但是提一下我的问题。
有什么证据说明吕祖和神仙没有死，是个人信仰吗？还是有什么可以支持这个看法？
没有死的话，现在是个什么样的生存状态？
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Tue Nov 29 07:30:38 2011, 美东) 提到:
Good Question. 佛教有不少高僧不是有天眼通吗？ 你叫他们看看，告诉你好啦。 我
自己还是凡人，所以对于我来说始终都只是信仰。 但是这个世界上有不是凡人的人，
如果他们看到的都一样，就说明问题啦。 I think. 你觉得观世音会找不到吕洞宾吗？
他俩现在都应该在凡间有化身吧。
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Tue Nov 29 11:13:55 2011, 美东) 提到:
"你必然迟早有一天死亡。我将来死不死，你不知道。"
This statement is what I am happy and peaceful to accept. You die or not,
has nothing to do with me.
You got angry in another post when I mentioned that you were not satisfied
with Buddhism, and you started to say things very harshly. I didn't
understand you at that time, and I apologized for my insensitivity to your
tolerances of my statement.
I have never been angry with you, but I was disappointed in this post
earlier as I had assumed that you understood me, but later I figured that
you didn't understand me, and once this fact was realized, it's okay with me.
Your anger and your denial of your anger shows exactly your lack of
confidence in believing that you will not die one day. Your own fear drove
you into thinking that my intention was to either curse you or challenge you
, none of which was what I intended.
If you remember, I asked you twice please give me an example who has not
died, and you had never answered me. However, I am glad that I asked those
questions, as you have posted more on such stories recently.
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Tue Nov 29 11:21:02 2011, 美东) 提到:
I hear your judgement, and it's okay with me. I am who I am, no matter how
many more labels you put on me, it does not change me any bit.
I'll give you one more example on neutrality. As I mentioned in my earlier
response, I was disappointed that I assumed that you understood me. The fact
that you did not understand is neutral. When I didn't think so, I was
disappointed. When I realized so, I became peaceful. The fact did not change
, it's me who have changed thoughts and feelings.
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Tue Nov 29 20:12:25 2011, 美东) 提到:
First, it does not change me any bit.
Then, it is me who have changed thoughts and feelings.
就这么一小段就又自相矛盾啦。。。。。。。。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Tue Nov 29 20:30:50 2011, 美东) 提到:
你给我的罪名也不少嘛。我以为你那么neutral,对自己的认识也能客观一点呢。原来基
本就是neutral的指责别人而已嘛。
You 恐怕secretly hope 我很生气吧。 这样就可以显得你自己多么有能力控制情绪，
别人不如你。 从头到尾这个post就是贬低贬低我，抬高抬高你自己。 I got it.
难怪Jeaniris不理你啦呢，这个帖子基本没有任何有价值的东东。
但是不要紧，我经常说废话，所以可以继续回你的帖子。没有关系。
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nibbana (卍) 于 (Tue Nov 29 22:45:05 2011, 美东) 提到:
等你修成了来告诉我吧。我现在一个高僧也不认识。
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bdbd (kakali) 于 (Wed Nov 30 06:36:08 2011, 美东) 提到:
呵呵，托你的吉言，最近俺越来越觉得死亡如此之近，不努力修行，实在是很恐怖。
你现在还修动中禅吗？ 俺觉得佛家的功夫虽然非常好，但是对养神长生，没有针对性
。 如果真的能很快正果当然好，但是这个又不能保证，所以不如多活几年，这样得救
的机会也大点。
估计你得好好问问，俺几个佛家师傅都很牛。 而且这些人都有自己的一套方法。 我知
道一些，但是答应了别人不说出去。 也不是故意隐瞒，据说每个人情况不同，方法也
不同的。
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 30 09:20:38 2011, 美东) 提到:
sigh. I like watering, and I know that I am very wordy sometimes, as I want
to provide all the information I know. But no matter what I say, you can not
understand me. Let me try one last time.
By "it does not change my any bit", I mean that your label does not apply to
me. Either you say this, or somebody else says something else, those
judgements are just labels, but they do not necessarily reflect the true "me
", and they don't affect my self-evaluation at all. But I'll say, it's good
to hear those judgements now and then, as they might have some truth in it.
By "it is me who have changed thoughts and feelings", I mean that thoughts
and emotions rise and fall, and I don't identify myself with those. They are
not "me".
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TrueStory (不是幸福的坑不挖) 于 (Wed Nov 30 09:25:08 2011, 美东) 提到:
You were angry, but you are not angry now. That's exactly how emotions rise
and fall. I was disappointed before, but I am peaceful now. Why do you think
that my clarifying this process ever means who's better at control emotions
? Emotions come and go, why does one need to control them? Can emotions be
controlled?
You are judging me, and you see me as judging you. |
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