G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 1 “It turns out United Methodist congregations gave their leaders a $15 boost
(in 2008 dollars) on average for each new member added (about 3 percent of
new revenues generated from the membership increase) and cut their pay by
about $7 for each member lost.”
http://www.slate.com/id/2258794/
The Almighty Dollar
Are preachers motivated by the desire to save souls or to make cold, hard
cash?
By Ray FismanPosted Wednesday, July 7, 2010, at 7:15 AM ET
Chris Parsons is the son of a Baptist preacher. He remembers his mom hawking
audiocassettes of his father's sermons in the church lobby after services—
the Baptist church encouraged this spirit of enterprise among those tending
its flocks. So perhaps it's no surprise that Parsons found his calling as an
economics professor and is now preaching the gospel of Adam Smith at the
University of North Carolina's Kenan-Flagler Business School. Parsons'
thesis adviser, Jay Hartzell, is also a preacher's son. Hartzell likes to
quote Corinthians in connecting his current work to his father's ministering
roots: "If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap
a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you,
shouldn't we have it all the more?" In other words, if Goldman Sachs
bankers get paid based on profits they earn for the company, why shouldn't
preachers get bonuses based on souls saved (and paying members recruited)?
Working with David Yermack of New York University, the two preachers' sons
set out to test the Corinthian hypothesis by investigating the economic
incentives affecting the United Methodist clergy of Oklahoma, where Hartzell
's stepfather had spent his career. In "Is Higher Calling Enough?" a study
forthcoming in the Journal of Labor Economics, the researchers show that
Oklahoma's ministers are driven not just by spiritual motivations but also
by high-powered financial incentives. Working with more than 40 years of
church records covering more than 2,000 clergy, the authors find that
ministers received about a 3 percent share of revenues generated from
boosting membership, comparable to the pay-for-profit sensitivity of Fortune
500 CEOs. They also uncover some unfortunate side-effects of financial
incentives for ministers who, motivated by material concerns, may have been
encouraged to poach congregants from one another's flocks rather than to
bring new believers into the fold.
Before examining how financial incentives have affected Oklahoma's pastors,
we first need to say what makes a great minister. Performance for corporate
execs is relatively straightforward—they get paid based on the profits they
generate. For nonprofits, performance depends on the organization's mission
. Hospitals exist to heal the sick; schools, to educate children. The United
Methodist church's primary objective is to attract disciples (which in turn
keeps the collection box full and the church solvent).
To test whether ministers in Oklahoma get incentive pay, Hartzell and
Parsons photocopied accounts from all Oklahoma churches dating back to 1960
and shipped them to India to be entered into a massive spreadsheet. The
numbers included, among other things, a complete accounting of each minister
's compensation as well as congregation membership and church revenues.
The researchers examined whether pastors earned more in years when their
churches saw congregations grow and their pay suffer if membership declined.
It turns out United Methodist congregations gave their leaders a $15 boost
(in 2008 dollars) on average for each new member added (about 3 percent of
new revenues generated from the membership increase) and cut their pay by
about $7 for each member lost. Of course, not all membership losses are the
fault of church leadership. Just as you wouldn't want to reward Exxon's CEO
if profits shot up because of a doubling in the price of oil, ministers
shouldn't get rewarded or punished based on luck. And it seems that the
ministers' paymasters (more on them below) are wise to some of the
complications that confront executive compensation committees. Parsons and
his colleagues found that minister pay was insensitive to membership changes
from births and deaths in the congregation, which lie beyond his control.
The authors also compared the payoff from converting non-Methodists to
attracting new members from other United Methodist congregations. Much to
their surprise, ministers received nearly twice as much for "stealing sheep"
from other United Methodist flocks than for bringing in congregants from
other faiths.
Why wouldn't the bishop of Oklahoma set pay scales to encourage pastors to
grow the United Methodist pie rather than encouraging competition among his
own ministers? It turns out that the bishop of Oklahoma doesn't set
ministers' pay at all but leaves it to the discretion of local congregations
. To understand why, it's important to keep in mind that a pastor needs to
do a lot besides scouting new converts—he should show compassion to members
in sickness or in financial trouble, deliver thoughtful sermons, set an
example for the community. The bishop has neither the time nor the localized
information required to evaluate each of his hundreds of pastors on these
hard-to-measure tasks. So he leaves the task to each church, but with the
cost that local interests prevail. And local interests may be well-served by
attracting other Methodists, who may be more stable, dues-paying members
than those who are new to the church.
The bishop does, however, get the last word, through his choice of which
pastors get promoted to the choicest pulpits. And he uses this reward to at
least partially reverse the backward incentives of local congregations. The
study found that the path to high-paying, prestigious congregations is
through converting people of other faiths, not stealing Methodist sheep.
None of this is to say that Oklahoma's ministers are inspired by paychecks
alone—while their pay-for-performance sensitivity is similar to that of
business leaders, the sums involved are much, much smaller (their average
compensation was around $35,000 in 2006). But it is a reminder that even in
circumstances in which one wouldn't expect material rewards to be a
motivation, a higher calling may not be enough. | G*M
发帖数: 6042 | | G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 3 那是因为文章中的基督徒都不是 true-believer
【在 G*M 的大作中提到】
: 我肯定没有人觉得脸上火辣辣的，我对基督徒有信心
| B********e
发帖数: 19317 | | G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 5 1 Corinthians 9:11-12
If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a
material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you,
shouldn't we have it all the more? | E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 6 3%=$15, 一個信徒就等於是 $500 免稅收入。
不錯的生意。 | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 7 老鼠会？
boost
of
hawking
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: “It turns out United Methodist congregations gave their leaders a $15 boost
: (in 2008 dollars) on average for each new member added (about 3 percent of
: new revenues generated from the membership increase) and cut their pay by
: about $7 for each member lost.”
: http://www.slate.com/id/2258794/
: The Almighty Dollar
: Are preachers motivated by the desire to save souls or to make cold, hard
: cash?
: By Ray FismanPosted Wednesday, July 7, 2010, at 7:15 AM ET
: Chris Parsons is the son of a Baptist preacher. He remembers his mom hawking
| G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 8 能够知道这么多内幕，看来ICLL级别不低，不像只知道摇旗呐喊的角色 | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 9 他不是说原先是长老之类的？
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 能够知道这么多内幕，看来ICLL级别不低，不像只知道摇旗呐喊的角色
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 10 正好证明天堂的门是窄的
【在 B********e 的大作中提到】
: 可是当需要号称全世界1/3人口的时候。。。
| | | G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 11 哦，我没注意
我只是拿他跟永生和littletshirt,paulsun 比较了一下，得出来的结论，看来不是太off.
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 他不是说原先是长老之类的？
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 12 um，放狗搜了一下，在第二页搜到这个，看来他原先的长老身份和基督徒身份是被攻击
的要点
__________
剛出國的時候，作為中國人，都會有一種比較幼稚的想法，就是要融入主流社會，西方
人干什麼，我們就學什
麼。
這里發點議論，我覺得這樣不好，原因大概是因為 中國人是個缺乏民族自豪感的民族
，西化在出國的中國人
中，似乎是個褒義詞。
我們不在意保持自己的民族傳統。這一點上，我們比印度人，穆斯林民族，俄羅斯人
等，都差了一些。當然，
這個道理，也是我完全成年後才想明白的。當學生的時候，也總想著西化自己，“融入
主流社會”了。
這是原因之一。
原因之二，ICLL 從小相信世界上有神，這主要來源于我本人的一些神秘經歷，我甚至
幻化地看到過神的形態，
其正面十分象一只展翅的天鵝。
當然，用今天的科學來解釋，那應該是 一個幻覺，來源于希望考試及格的強烈願望（
嘿嘿）。
ICLL 小時候有著一套自己的宗教儀式，其中包括祈禱，請求，和神打賭，聊天，還願
等，現在想起來，一半應
該是受佛教的影響，另一半，屬于自創。
而且總的來說，ICLL 和神的關系一直不壞，這個每個人自己，會有些感覺，比如祈禱
實現啦，神的關照啦什麼
的。現在想起來，可能屬于心理暗示（當然，也有可能是真有神，只是可能）
這兩個原因合起來，ICLL剛到美國的時候，接觸到基督教，當時學校里的孩子們，除了
學英語，最熱中的，可能
就是談教會的事情了。
因為我幼年的經歷，我覺 得信宗教應該是可以接受的，而且我本人有這方面的體驗（
基督徒所說的聖靈感
應），所以很快，就受了洗。
洗禮的牧師叫 ERNEST。我接受的是三月的一次集體洗禮，現在想起來，屬于給耶和華
的批發，呵呵。
在聖經的學習中，和所有基督徒一樣，也踫到了十分多的問題，根本無法解釋的問題，
以及矛盾的問題。這個時
候，一位老基督徒提供給我了一個思路，就是那個著 名的“神的邏輯和人的邏輯不同
”的思路。
靠了這個思路，我解決了一切問題。不信的話，呵呵，無論是老七，還是青青柏楊樹，
隨便你們提什麼聖經的問
題，我只 靠這一個套路，起碼可以立于不敗的。
在考牌和實習期間，太忙，沒有和教會有什麼聯系，而且後來也去了另一個城市，所以
和原教會的關系也淡忘
了。
自己開業後，接觸的華人很多，教徒也就很多，于是進了當地的一個小華人教會，教徒
大概有20 來人，也經常
變動。
其中說粵語的有一半，台灣人又有1/4，大陸人1/4。老實說，大陸人的能力實在比其他
地方人的能力要強多了，
無論是口才還是思維能 力，香港人和台灣人都要弱一些，所以教會里兩個長老，均是
大陸人，而且平時發言辯
論的，也多是大陸人。
ICLL 能成為長老，主要是兩個原因，第一是口才，我解經的方式和其他人不同，老實
說，就在本論壇里，無論
是“第二常委”，還是“PROVERB”等人要解經，他 們的解釋方式，無論是誰，只要沒
有完全被洗腦的，都覺得牽
強，事實上聖經的漏洞，多半也是靠這些牽強的方式來彌補的。
但ICLL 的解釋方式，其本質上，就是不解釋。為什麼不解釋？
因為上帝的邏輯和人類的不同，我們人類的邏輯無法理解上帝的做法。這一條，就可以
了。
所以我經常說的一 句話，是“聖經是寫來讓我們相信的，不是寫來讓我們辯論的”，
即符合“因信稱義”，又避免了
教徒過多思考以帶來對聖經的懷疑（罪過罪過）。所以無論是牧 師，還是教徒，對我
的演講，都是比較滿意
的。
當然，其中的一個訣竅是，要講聖經里好的部分，殺人的部分，不講或盡量少講。
第二是因為經濟上的原因，為了抵稅的原因，我也曾大量捐助教會（現在都捐助給NASA
了），我想這是一個不
可或缺的因素，我的代碼所捐助的錢，比我們教會所有人的捐助加起來，還多很多。
這個情況，一直延續了 11 年（有人說他 15 年才信主，呵呵，我則用了 11 年，才擺
脫耶和華這個魔鬼），其中
做長老四年。
當然，後面的故事我已經講過了，在學習了量子力學之後，才發現我原來思維的邏輯根
基是錯誤的，是違反哥
本哈根精神的。
作為人的我，不可能得出上帝的邏輯和 人類邏輯不同的結論，任何觀測都是相對于觀
測者的，不存在獨立的，
不依靠觀測者而存在的所謂客觀事實。
換句話說，上帝的任何作為，其評價者，只能是我們人 類。如果我們能得出耶和華是
善良的結論的話，那麼我
們同樣有權得出耶和華是邪惡的結論。
如果把聖經作為觀測對象的數據，那麼其結論必然是耶和華有好有壞， 而且壞的一部
分，佔了大多數。
這個根基崩潰後，ICLL 決定退出教會，但因為在教會時間長了，人際之間的關系還是
需要保持的，加上我們可
愛的劉牧師是個開明的人，他說你可以把你的看法作為一種看法來講，私下里 我們也
是朋友，劉也不是基要派
的狂熱分子，所以還很談得來（其實想想教皇都能接受進化論，那些基要派死硬分子還
撐個什麼勁呢？）
現在我去教會主要講的是對聖經的謹慎理解，當然，因為是面對面，所以不會象在論壇
上這樣火暴（我是人，遵
守人的本性）。
我主要講，對于聖經，不能完全相信，如果你有什麼地方不理解，而又不願意明確地上
升到意識上，說我不相信
這一點，那麼就擱置這一點。萬不能相信上帝曾說過什麼殺同性戀，娶再婚女子就是淫
蕩之類的鬼話。
這很有可能是人借神的名義編造出來的。做什麼事情都不能極端，信宗教也一樣，極端
了就出問題。
我現在最矛盾的，是應該不應該告訴他們我認為耶和華是魔鬼( 註 )。這個觀點，論壇
上講，問題不大，但如果
面對面地對教徒講，將從根基上摧毀一個信仰，引起直接的沖突。這個問題，我還沒想
好。大家也可以幫我出出
主意。
我想如果有真神的話，它會幫助我。順便說一句，有趣的是，反基督教的人里，不持有
無神論觀點的，我覺得好
象就我一個，呵呵，當然，其他宗教的人反基督教，就不算啦。
註 : ICLL認為基督教不斷被科學揭穿後，它現在剩下的，只有不斷地奴化人的
思想，什麼不要問，只要信，這
樣的聖經，這樣的耶和華，怎麼看都像個收取人靈魂的魔鬼。所以，他勸那些盲目崇拜
耶和華的人，不要中了魔
鬼的詭計，要用真正的上帝給我們人類的大腦去判斷和思考，不然到死的時候才發現上
當，也許就晚了。
太off.
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 哦，我没注意
: 我只是拿他跟永生和littletshirt,paulsun 比较了一下，得出来的结论，看来不是太off.
| S*********L
发帖数: 5785 | 13 这只是一个牧师工资增加和减少和教会成员增减之间关系的比较，而不是直接增加一个
人就增加多少工资，更别说是拉一人来就得多少拥金了。
别说原文作者就是一个博客的主人，缺乏可信度，即使完全可信，能支持ICLL的观点吗？
另外，增加一个人一年就增加$15，真的就是原作者声称的大笔金钱吗？这就是ICLL口
中很有积极性的动力吗？
你们也太轻信太好骗了吧。
boost
of
hawking
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: “It turns out United Methodist congregations gave their leaders a $15 boost
: (in 2008 dollars) on average for each new member added (about 3 percent of
: new revenues generated from the membership increase) and cut their pay by
: about $7 for each member lost.”
: http://www.slate.com/id/2258794/
: The Almighty Dollar
: Are preachers motivated by the desire to save souls or to make cold, hard
: cash?
: By Ray FismanPosted Wednesday, July 7, 2010, at 7:15 AM ET
: Chris Parsons is the son of a Baptist preacher. He remembers his mom hawking
| B********e
发帖数: 19317 | 14
看到量子力学。。。想起来跑大师。。。
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: um，放狗搜了一下，在第二页搜到这个，看来他原先的长老身份和基督徒身份是被攻击
: 的要点
: __________
: 剛出國的時候，作為中國人，都會有一種比較幼稚的想法，就是要融入主流社會，西方
: 人干什麼，我們就學什
: 麼。
: 這里發點議論，我覺得這樣不好，原因大概是因為 中國人是個缺乏民族自豪感的民族
: ，西化在出國的中國人
: 中，似乎是個褒義詞。
: 我們不在意保持自己的民族傳統。這一點上，我們比印度人，穆斯林民族，俄羅斯人
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 15 握个小手
【在 B********e 的大作中提到】
:
: 看到量子力学。。。想起来跑大师。。。
| G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 16 Title: Is a Higher Calling Enough? Incentive Compensation in the Church
Authors: Yermack, David
Issue Date: 2-Feb-2009
Series/Report no.: FIN-08-015
Abstract: We study the compensation and productivity of more than 2,000
Methodist ministers in a 43-year panel data set. The church appears to use
pay-for-performance incentives for its clergy, as their compensation follows
a sharing rule by which pastors receive approximately 3 percent of the
incremental revenue from membership increases. The elasticity between
ministers’ pay and parish size is similar to the firm size elasticity
of compensation for public company CEOs. Among a range of possible
performance measures, those with the greatest informativeness about pastoral
effort are linked most closely to compensation. | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 17 循道宗的都不是真基，证毕
Church
000
follows
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: Title: Is a Higher Calling Enough? Incentive Compensation in the Church
: Authors: Yermack, David
: Issue Date: 2-Feb-2009
: Series/Report no.: FIN-08-015
: Abstract: We study the compensation and productivity of more than 2,000
: Methodist ministers in a 43-year panel data set. The church appears to use
: pay-for-performance incentives for its clergy, as their compensation follows
: a sharing rule by which pastors receive approximately 3 percent of the
: incremental revenue from membership increases. The elasticity between
: ministers’ pay and parish size is similar to the firm size elasticity
|
|
