W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 1 I think this article should be helpful to my boss before he calls 12X raise
with KQs at sb..
============================================================================
In a no-limit hold’em session you’ll probably find yourself in trouble at
least once. Trouble means that an opponent has made a large bet or raise,
and you don’t know what to do. Your hand isn’t so good that you’re
beating your opponent into the pot, and it isn’t so bad that it’s an easy
fold.
Getting into trouble is bad for your bottom line. Typically these are lose-
lose situations. If you call, you’ll lose more often than not. But if you
fold, obviously you lose the pot.
Getting into some trouble is unavoidable, but many players get themselves
into too much trouble by making ill-conceived bets or calls early in a hand.
I’ll present a few examples where players get into trouble, and I’ll
discuss what, if anything, they could have done to avoid it. The examples (
except as noted) will be from $1-$2 games with $200 stacks.
Hand 1
An early player raises to $10. A player calls from three off the button with
Qc Jd . The button makes it $30 to go. The blinds fold, and both players
call.
The flop is Qh 9h 3s . Both callers check to the button who bets $60 into
the $93 pot. The first player folds, and the one with Q-J calls.
The turn is the 4d . The first player checks, and the second shoves all-in.
It’s a $110 bet, and the pot is $213.
This is a classic example of an error early in a hand leading to trouble. In
fact, Q-J and similar weak big card hands are sometimes known as “trouble
hands” for all the postflop trouble they can get you into. On the turn the
player with Q-J is getting roughly 3-to-1 to call, but in all likelihood he
’s up against someone holding A-A or K-K. Even with five outs against an
overpair, it’s a fold.
But the real mistake occurred preflop. Calling an early position raise from
three off the button with Q-J offsuit is questionable. I can think of a few
situations where I might make the call, but far more often I’d fold. Once
the button reraises, however, calling again is a costly error. It can look
tempting to call $20 to win what is now a $73 pot. But the reraiser is
marked with an extremely strong hand, and the flop bet will likely be large.
The odds to draw out aren’t there.
As a general rule, calling preflop reraises with weak or marginal hands is
asking for trouble. Preflop reraises usually mean business. Just fold.
Hand 2
A player opens for $8 from five off the button with Kd Qs . A middle
position player and the cutoff call. So does the big blind. The flop comes Kh
Th 8s . The big blind checks, and the player with K-Q bets $30 into the $
33 pot. The next two players call, and the big blind folds.
The turn is the 9c . The player with K-Q bets $90 into the $123 pot. Only
the cutoff calls.
The river is the 4s . The first player checks, and the cutoff moves all-in
for $72. Excluding the bet, there is $303 in the pot.
This is another trouble spot. The pot is quite large compared to the bet,
but K-Q is a weak hand in this situation. While at first one might say, “
Gotta call with top pair,” for the call to be worthwhile, it requires the
cutoff player to bet a hand K-J or worse. The vast majority of players would
gladly check down K-J or any other weaker one pair hand rather than put in
their last $72 on the river.
A bluff also seems unlikely given the action. This is definitely a lose-lose
situation for the player with K-Q. The problem in this hand was the turn
bet. It is far too aggressive for the hand strength.
Preflop, opening K-Q offsuit is entirely reasonable. At times it can be a
trouble hand, and I would generally fold it to a preflop reraise. But it’s
good enough for an opening raise.
On the flop the hand is relatively strong. Many weaker hands will call this
$30 bet including weaker kings, draws, and even hands like T-9 or A-8.
On the turn, however, the situation has changed. First, the turn card
connects with a number of the hands that would have called the flop. T-9,
for instance, has now made two pair. Furthermore, the large $90 turn bet
will fold out most weaker hands. It’s a bit of wishful thinking to hope
that someone with K-3 will call $90 on the turn. Without a doubt it happens
occasionally, but on average if the turn bet gets called or raised, one can
no longer expect K-Q to be the best hand.
In general you shouldn’t bet made hands when you will primarily be called
only by better hands. Of course there are exceptions, but in this example
the turn bet overplayed the strength of the hand. A turn check wouldn’t
avoid trouble in every instance, but it’s the better play.
Hand 3
In this hand the stacks are $500 rather than $200. A loose player opens for
$10, and four people call. You call on the button with 4-4. Both blinds call
. Eight players see the flop for a total of $80.
The flop comes Qh Ts 4c . Everyone checks to you, and you bet $60. Two
players call.
The turn is the Jc . They check to you, and you bet $200 into the $260 pot.
One player calls.
The river is the Kc . Your opponent moves all-in for $230.
This is certainly trouble. You flopped a set in a large pot, but now four to
a straight and three to a backdoor flush are on board. It’s $230 to you,
and the pot is a huge $660 excluding the bet. But all your opponent needs to
beat you is an ace.
Against most players you should fold in this situation. More importantly for
this article, this trouble was unavoidable. The preflop call, flop bet, and
turn bet were all well played. You just fell victim to a bad card on the
turn and a terrible one on the river. It happens.
Final Thoughts
Not all trouble is avoidable, but a lot of it is. You can make trouble for
yourself by overcommitting to weak or marginal hands. You can do this by
calling preflop raises too freely or sometimes by playing too aggressively
on the flop or turn with a vulnerable made hand.
If you find yourself in a terrible situation like the examples above where
you face a large bet in an even bigger pot, and your hand isn’t quite good
enough, review all your play that led up to the trouble. Did you just get
unlucky and catch a really bad card like in the third example? Or could you
have done something better, like in the first and second examples, and
avoided the trouble? Answering these questions will make you a better player. | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 2 i think your boss' hand is quite different from what's mentioned in this
article (most of them are just off suit TPWK hands).
in live 1/2NL, $25 is a big bet, but not really in the "12x" sense, just
like a "standard" 3x or 4x is nothing in this game.
so the real question becomes: is it ok to call with his KQs for something
between 4x and 12x, let's say 8x? may be ok, right?
so actually the biggest problem is his position, not that much of a mistake
with his hand.
the flop is perfect for his hand, with a max of 14 outs (unlike 5 outs in
the article with QJo trash), he's a favorite against most of his opponent's
possible holdings or won't be far behind at all.
i don't like his flop call and then see the "hope" vanish 50% on a blank
turn while deeply committed.
to me, preflop call out of position is an argurablly small mistake, weak on
flop is a bigger mistake if he plays this hand at all. even check fold is "
better" in line with his "weakness".
raise
==
at
easy
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I think this article should be helpful to my boss before he calls 12X raise
: with KQs at sb..
: ============================================================================
: In a no-limit hold’em session you’ll probably find yourself in trouble at
: least once. Trouble means that an opponent has made a large bet or raise,
: and you don’t know what to do. Your hand isn’t so good that you’re
: beating your opponent into the pot, and it isn’t so bad that it’s an easy
: fold.
: Getting into trouble is bad for your bottom line. Typically these are lose-
: lose situations. If you call, you’ll lose more often than not. But if you
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 3 I think they are almost same thing. I will not call 25 with KQs out of
position in live game. In this particular case, his boss flopped the monster
draw, but for most of the cases, the best flop he can wish is Kxx or Qxx,
which could cost him a lot without position...
mistake
s
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: i think your boss' hand is quite different from what's mentioned in this
: article (most of them are just off suit TPWK hands).
: in live 1/2NL, $25 is a big bet, but not really in the "12x" sense, just
: like a "standard" 3x or 4x is nothing in this game.
: so the real question becomes: is it ok to call with his KQs for something
: between 4x and 12x, let's say 8x? may be ok, right?
: so actually the biggest problem is his position, not that much of a mistake
: with his hand.
: the flop is perfect for his hand, with a max of 14 outs (unlike 5 outs in
: the article with QJo trash), he's a favorite against most of his opponent's
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 4 well, if he plays KQs this way, he's not really hoping some Kxx or Qxx flop
in most cases. just like for an OK player, hands like KQo is a throw-away in
this spot, simply because a TPGK hand out of position is not a big hand at
all, let alone for a big pot.
what he really wants to see is flop like this, or not as good (say, without
Q but 2 spades), and to really maximize the power of his strong flush draw.
this hand is almost identical to one of the biggest hand in history on TV,
where durrrr holds KQs, peter eastgate has AKo, barry greenstein got AA.
durrrr refuses to deal it twice or each takes some $ back on the flop (
greenstein offers this deal to reduce variance).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4m1rufDrIU&feature=related
the pot is over $900K.
monster
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: I think they are almost same thing. I will not call 25 with KQs out of
: position in live game. In this particular case, his boss flopped the monster
: draw, but for most of the cases, the best flop he can wish is Kxx or Qxx,
: which could cost him a lot without position...
:
: mistake
: s
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 5 Are you saying you play KQs for its flush value instead of its actual high
card value? The suited only add your winrate preflop marginally.
On a side note, don't compare 1$/2$ live shallow stack with deep deep HSP
poker. HSP is deep which give much better implied odds and people's range
is wide. Tell me 1 hand on 1$/2$ live table where KQs is ahead of when
someone raise 25$ preflop. It is 10% of your stack investment. You are out
of position. Let it go, or better if you know someone is raising light,
squeeze him and pick up the dead money.
flop
in
at
without
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: well, if he plays KQs this way, he's not really hoping some Kxx or Qxx flop
: in most cases. just like for an OK player, hands like KQo is a throw-away in
: this spot, simply because a TPGK hand out of position is not a big hand at
: all, let alone for a big pot.
: what he really wants to see is flop like this, or not as good (say, without
: Q but 2 spades), and to really maximize the power of his strong flush draw.
: this hand is almost identical to one of the biggest hand in history on TV,
: where durrrr holds KQs, peter eastgate has AKo, barry greenstein got AA.
: durrrr refuses to deal it twice or each takes some $ back on the flop (
: greenstein offers this deal to reduce variance).
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 6 +1.. exactly the same thing.. lol..
after he call preflop. Nothing he did was wrong flop or turn but every move
is -ev or marginal at best.
monster
【在 g**s 的大作中提到】
: I think they are almost same thing. I will not call 25 with KQs out of
: position in live game. In this particular case, his boss flopped the monster
: draw, but for most of the cases, the best flop he can wish is Kxx or Qxx,
: which could cost him a lot without position...
:
: mistake
: s
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 7 of course he's playing with his flush value.
KQo even he flops Kxx or Qxx, with a max of 5 outs.
KQs, with a max of 14 outs.
or put it in the way, calling $25 here with KQo is like you're fighting with
a stronger guy, AND you decide to do it with only one arm. calling with KQs
here is you fight with TWO arms, and the other one is much stronger.
there's nothing really that different between your friend's hand and durrrr'
s hand here, your friend got 170BB too, which is pretty deep. yes, durrrr
and those high stakers play many hands we'll never understand, but this one
is straight-forward.
you and i may not play this hand this way (or durrrr's way), but it's
totally fine for him if he calls pre. the only problem is he chickens on the
flop. inconsistency is the biggest leak.
and you think your friend didn't know he's behind? if we only call/raise
when we know we're tied or ahead, there'd be no poker, right? just wait for
our AAs.
if he calls with KQo here, i totally agree it's a bad play. if he calls with
KQs every time somebody does this, i partially agree it could be a leak.
high
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Are you saying you play KQs for its flush value instead of its actual high
: card value? The suited only add your winrate preflop marginally.
: On a side note, don't compare 1$/2$ live shallow stack with deep deep HSP
: poker. HSP is deep which give much better implied odds and people's range
: is wide. Tell me 1 hand on 1$/2$ live table where KQs is ahead of when
: someone raise 25$ preflop. It is 10% of your stack investment. You are out
: of position. Let it go, or better if you know someone is raising light,
: squeeze him and pick up the dead money.
:
: flop
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 not deep anymore after 25$ raise... stack size is depending on preflop raise
.. so called SPR... | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 9 your friend got $325 bah? just read again to make sure.
after he calls pre, pot on flop is $100, he still got $300 before he calls. he
simply can't check call $100 here with this KQs hand. fold or shove, 2 cards
coming, take a breath and choose one.
if you think his flop trouble roots in his preflop action, then his turn
trouble roots right here on the flop, which i'd say he got no plan at all.
raise
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: not deep anymore after 25$ raise... stack size is depending on preflop raise
: .. so called SPR...
| T*********k
发帖数: 1621 | 10 I think the article's point is extremely valid. Especially online.
For whatever reason, I played online a lot looser than I play live, as if
the chip online just toy money. Overall I lost money online and make some
money live.
Live game is a little different. A lot of suppose 0.25/0.5 or 0.10 / 0.25
players are forced to playe 1/2 so normally 1/2 or even 2/5 game is a jungle
. Player play a lot looser than online.
I bet most ppl will play QKs in SB. but yeah, in reality, an K or Q flop
without flush draw is trouble in this situation.
You boss happen to flop the best hand possilbe for him other than two pair
or full house. I play those type of hand aggressively so I am in line with
Fryking and incline to shove on the flop. But it is a personal choice.
But can't argue with your result so I will figure your preflop is very
displinced, which is a good thing. A tag should do that anyway. |
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