s********z
发帖数: 5411 | | c******7
发帖数: 439 | 2 这个是不是有点倾向于vanguard的bias?
因为Bogle的原因?
虽然我对这个表示十分理解,
但是出于completeness考虑, 看这个网站的会不会有selection bias risk?
比如morningstar应该是独立的吧.
而且fee-based利益关系也比较清楚
这个是不是fan-made, non-profit组织?
请lz讲解一下, 谢谢! | S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 3 When the followers become more extreme than the founder, you know something
is wrong. The bogleheads always like to throw out argument like 80% active
managed funds underperform index, which is a fact by the way, yet never can
face the challenge that majority of the Vanguard's actively managed fund
outperform their benchmark index.
I may run faster than 80% of people in my neighborhood, am I a good runner?
Nah, I include everyone in my neighborhood, from new-borns and 80 years-old.
Having said that, you can do much worse than using index funds, buy and hold
and rebalance, but if you throw out those high-ER funds, and closet-index
fund, stick with funds with good long-term record, stable management, low
fee, low turn-over, low asset under management, sensible investment
philosophy that you feel comfortable with, buy and hold those funds and
rebalance, you have a good chance to outperform index during a full/multiple
market cycle.
M* is a business.
【在 c******7 的大作中提到】
: 这个是不是有点倾向于vanguard的bias?
: 因为Bogle的原因?
: 虽然我对这个表示十分理解,
: 但是出于completeness考虑, 看这个网站的会不会有selection bias risk?
: 比如morningstar应该是独立的吧.
: 而且fee-based利益关系也比较清楚
: 这个是不是fan-made, non-profit组织?
: 请lz讲解一下, 谢谢!
| s********z
发帖数: 5411 | 4 they lean toward vanguard because of the low fee, but you can certainly find
even lower fees else where.
I don't have a vanguard account.
boglehead is as independent as you can get. it is just online forum
supported by donation and amazon shopping.
again, these are all information on different assets, taxes,...
things people should know before investing.
【在 c******7 的大作中提到】
: 这个是不是有点倾向于vanguard的bias?
: 因为Bogle的原因?
: 虽然我对这个表示十分理解,
: 但是出于completeness考虑, 看这个网站的会不会有selection bias risk?
: 比如morningstar应该是独立的吧.
: 而且fee-based利益关系也比较清楚
: 这个是不是fan-made, non-profit组织?
: 请lz讲解一下, 谢谢!
| s********z
发帖数: 5411 | 5 hehe, can you give me an example of long term low fee consistently market
beating fund?
something
can
?
old.
hold
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: When the followers become more extreme than the founder, you know something
: is wrong. The bogleheads always like to throw out argument like 80% active
: managed funds underperform index, which is a fact by the way, yet never can
: face the challenge that majority of the Vanguard's actively managed fund
: outperform their benchmark index.
: I may run faster than 80% of people in my neighborhood, am I a good runner?
: Nah, I include everyone in my neighborhood, from new-borns and 80 years-old.
: Having said that, you can do much worse than using index funds, buy and hold
: and rebalance, but if you throw out those high-ER funds, and closet-index
: fund, stick with funds with good long-term record, stable management, low
| S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 6 I will give you two to stat with, Wellington and Wellesley.
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: hehe, can you give me an example of long term low fee consistently market
: beating fund?
:
: something
: can
: ?
: old.
: hold
| s********z
发帖数: 5411 | 7 what benchmark are you comparing to when you say they outperform?
even if they do, I don't know if they will continue to outperform. If I can
predict the future, I will just buy next apple and google, why funds?
You may think you can, but I think I can't beat the market. So I just
diversify and rebalance, and of course, I use the cheapest fund for each
asset class. Besides, when you
You can certainly invest in these and they are good funds, but I just wanted
to see some clueless posters do a little homework before asking silly
questions.
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: I will give you two to stat with, Wellington and Wellesley.
| S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 8 VWELX is 60/40 and VWINX is 40/60 allocation funds, mostly hold large cap
with value bend especially VWINX. They also mostly hold a lot of corporate
bonds. For a few basis point higher than their relevant index funds,
although not guantanteed, they stand to have a good chance to continue
outperform, in spite of their bloated AUM.
You do know there are thousands of grey between black and white, yes?
Bogleheads typically think the reason why investors use active-managed
vehicles is to beat the market, probably these are the majority. But for me
and many others, the objective is to achieve market return with much less
downside volatility. My major long-term holdings all have such
characteristics, and I am perfectly at peace when my funds lagging,
sometimes badly, during the market run up.
can
wanted
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: what benchmark are you comparing to when you say they outperform?
: even if they do, I don't know if they will continue to outperform. If I can
: predict the future, I will just buy next apple and google, why funds?
:
: You may think you can, but I think I can't beat the market. So I just
: diversify and rebalance, and of course, I use the cheapest fund for each
: asset class. Besides, when you
: You can certainly invest in these and they are good funds, but I just wanted
: to see some clueless posters do a little homework before asking silly
: questions.
| c******7
发帖数: 439 | 9 lz居然没有vanguard? 我还以为你很推崇vanguard呢
我倒是有vwinx, 也赞同low fee这个观点
因为vanguard是Client owned
Fidelity是Private
T.Rowe Price是Public
我觉得这个是vanguard费用低的原因
boglehead is as independent as you can get
这个我不太知道啊, double check一下lz认同这个名字是从
John C. Bogle来的吧?
举个例子我不知道恰当不恰当
如果你问韩方大战的真相是什么
我跟你说 去百度韩寒贴吧看看去吧
这个显然就有selcetion bias的嫌疑啊
只是提个醒, 我觉得这个网站应该能学不少东西的
纯讨论, don't take it personal
find
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: they lean toward vanguard because of the low fee, but you can certainly find
: even lower fees else where.
: I don't have a vanguard account.
: boglehead is as independent as you can get. it is just online forum
: supported by donation and amazon shopping.
: again, these are all information on different assets, taxes,...
: things people should know before investing.
| S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 10 You do not need to have VG account to own VG funds. VG is great great MF
company, so-so brokerage.
【在 c******7 的大作中提到】
: lz居然没有vanguard? 我还以为你很推崇vanguard呢
: 我倒是有vwinx, 也赞同low fee这个观点
: 因为vanguard是Client owned
: Fidelity是Private
: T.Rowe Price是Public
: 我觉得这个是vanguard费用低的原因
: boglehead is as independent as you can get
: 这个我不太知道啊, double check一下lz认同这个名字是从
: John C. Bogle来的吧?
: 举个例子我不知道恰当不恰当
| | | R***n
发帖数: 25 | 11 Are you concerned about their high bond holding in the rising interest
environment?
me
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: VWELX is 60/40 and VWINX is 40/60 allocation funds, mostly hold large cap
: with value bend especially VWINX. They also mostly hold a lot of corporate
: bonds. For a few basis point higher than their relevant index funds,
: although not guantanteed, they stand to have a good chance to continue
: outperform, in spite of their bloated AUM.
: You do know there are thousands of grey between black and white, yes?
: Bogleheads typically think the reason why investors use active-managed
: vehicles is to beat the market, probably these are the majority. But for me
: and many others, the objective is to achieve market return with much less
: downside volatility. My major long-term holdings all have such
| R***n
发帖数: 25 | 12 cost is higher if buying at Fidelity. What are their equivalent funds in
Fidelity?
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: You do not need to have VG account to own VG funds. VG is great great MF
: company, so-so brokerage.
| b****n
发帖数: 993 | 13 倾向是肯定的，bias谈不上。
另外推荐一个网站：www.ifa.com
这个网站上有很多很不错的资料。
这个公司也大力提倡指数，但融合了一些新的学术界的成果，比如偏重于小型的价值型
公司。
【在 c******7 的大作中提到】
: 这个是不是有点倾向于vanguard的bias?
: 因为Bogle的原因?
: 虽然我对这个表示十分理解,
: 但是出于completeness考虑, 看这个网站的会不会有selection bias risk?
: 比如morningstar应该是独立的吧.
: 而且fee-based利益关系也比较清楚
: 这个是不是fan-made, non-profit组织?
: 请lz讲解一下, 谢谢!
| c******7
发帖数: 439 | 14 嗯 学习一下
反正我每次都想:
What is in their interest to help me?
1. 骗子
2. 有爱心/教育性
3. fee-based, 这个是让你试吃的
这个算是他们的宣传费用, 他们期望今后对你收费
我并不认为上面提到的任何一个网站是骗子
但我喜欢3多一点, 对于自己宣称是2的我总要多想一想是不是骗子.
毕竟他对你也没有任何义务
【在 b****n 的大作中提到】
: 倾向是肯定的，bias谈不上。
: 另外推荐一个网站：www.ifa.com
: 这个网站上有很多很不错的资料。
: 这个公司也大力提倡指数，但融合了一些新的学术界的成果，比如偏重于小型的价值型
: 公司。
| b****n
发帖数: 993 | 15 理论上你说的也许没错，但实际操作上没有可能：成功的投资策略需要长时间的耐心和
纪律，没有哪家做生意的能有这个时间陪你玩，所以最后的结果只能是你付了费，然后
在很短的时间内被说服自己得到了满意的服务。
事实上，根据我的观察，不收费的网站里面骗子的比例没有比收费网站高。骗子也很理
解你说的这种心理：一个人交了钱自然就会千方百计地说服自己和他人自己买的东西值
这个价。这在behavior finance里面被详细研究过。
【在 c******7 的大作中提到】
: 嗯 学习一下
: 反正我每次都想:
: What is in their interest to help me?
: 1. 骗子
: 2. 有爱心/教育性
: 3. fee-based, 这个是让你试吃的
: 这个算是他们的宣传费用, 他们期望今后对你收费
: 我并不认为上面提到的任何一个网站是骗子
: 但我喜欢3多一点, 对于自己宣称是2的我总要多想一想是不是骗子.
: 毕竟他对你也没有任何义务
| s********z
发帖数: 5411 | 16 我不推崇任何broker，谁最便宜我用谁。
我用TD Ameritrade，因为我开户就能拿20k SPG，值500刀，另外可以免费trade 100多
个etf，其实我都买了vanguard的etf.
无数研究证明active是不能long term beat market的，大家还是飞蛾扑火。
【在 c******7 的大作中提到】
: lz居然没有vanguard? 我还以为你很推崇vanguard呢
: 我倒是有vwinx, 也赞同low fee这个观点
: 因为vanguard是Client owned
: Fidelity是Private
: T.Rowe Price是Public
: 我觉得这个是vanguard费用低的原因
: boglehead is as independent as you can get
: 这个我不太知道啊, double check一下lz认同这个名字是从
: John C. Bogle来的吧?
: 举个例子我不知道恰当不恰当
| b****n
发帖数: 993 | 17 我有点好奇，既然你不相信active management，认为收费越低越好，而且持有的也都
是vanguard的etf，那为什么不直接在vanguard开账户操作呢？那样的话应该是费用最
低啊？
不是质疑，因为我完全同意你的投资观念，而且自己也在vanguard开账户，买passive
index etf，定期rebalance，忠实执行这一套策略。
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: 我不推崇任何broker，谁最便宜我用谁。
: 我用TD Ameritrade，因为我开户就能拿20k SPG，值500刀，另外可以免费trade 100多
: 个etf，其实我都买了vanguard的etf.
: 无数研究证明active是不能long term beat market的，大家还是飞蛾扑火。
| s********z
发帖数: 5411 | 18 其实收费低不好，有选择的收费低才好。
比如ＴＤ,有免费的ｅｔｆ,但是其他的不便宜，这样才有油水。因为有人ｐａｙ很高的
ｃｏｍｍｉｓｓｉｏｎ你才有好的ｓｅｒｖｉｃｅ,ｐｅｒｋｓ。
我在ＴＤ花７５ｋ开了三个账户，光ｂｏｎｕｓ，ｐｏｉｎｔｓ拿了２ｋ,而ＴＤ有ｎ
ｏ ｆｅｅ ｄｅｂｔ ｃａｒｄ, ｆｒｅｅ ｗｉｒｅ，这些ｖａｎｇｕａｒｄ没
有。 但是我买ｅｔｆ两边都是ｆｒｅｅ的。
passive
【在 b****n 的大作中提到】
: 我有点好奇，既然你不相信active management，认为收费越低越好，而且持有的也都
: 是vanguard的etf，那为什么不直接在vanguard开账户操作呢？那样的话应该是费用最
: 低啊？
: 不是质疑，因为我完全同意你的投资观念，而且自己也在vanguard开账户，买passive
: index etf，定期rebalance，忠实执行这一套策略。
| b****n
发帖数: 993 | 19 原来如此啊，还是您老精。
service对我这样的来讲，要求不高，一年难得操作几次，即使操作也不赶时间，不用
人专门伺候，上网自己搞定。不过你说的bonus倒是不错的。
还有个问题，你在TD买vanguard的etf，即使没有手续费，难道连额外的管理费用也没
有吗？
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: 其实收费低不好，有选择的收费低才好。
: 比如ＴＤ,有免费的ｅｔｆ,但是其他的不便宜，这样才有油水。因为有人ｐａｙ很高的
: ｃｏｍｍｉｓｓｉｏｎ你才有好的ｓｅｒｖｉｃｅ,ｐｅｒｋｓ。
: 我在ＴＤ花７５ｋ开了三个账户，光ｂｏｎｕｓ，ｐｏｉｎｔｓ拿了２ｋ,而ＴＤ有ｎ
: ｏ ｆｅｅ ｄｅｂｔ ｃａｒｄ, ｆｒｅｅ ｗｉｒｅ，这些ｖａｎｇｕａｒｄ没
: 有。 但是我买ｅｔｆ两边都是ｆｒｅｅ的。
:
: passive
| s********z
发帖数: 5411 | 20 etf就是ｕｎｄｅｒｌｙｉｎｇ ｅｘｐｅｎｓｅ和ｃｏｍｍｉｓｓｉｏｎ啊，
那来的管理费？
在ｔｄ和ｖａｎｇｕａｒｄ都没有ｃｏｍｍｉｓｓｉｏｎ.
但是比如，你回国在ａｔｍ取钱，ｔｄ不收费不是很有用吗？
ｖａｎｇｕａｒｄ没有啊。
【在 b****n 的大作中提到】
: 原来如此啊，还是您老精。
: service对我这样的来讲，要求不高，一年难得操作几次，即使操作也不赶时间，不用
: 人专门伺候，上网自己搞定。不过你说的bonus倒是不错的。
: 还有个问题，你在TD买vanguard的etf，即使没有手续费，难道连额外的管理费用也没
: 有吗？
| | | S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 21 I do not have VWINX, but some VWELX. It is just a piece of my portfolio, my
bond allocation is lower, and bond universe is not just treasury. While
VWELX is pretty much fixed allocation fund, they do change makeup in their
bond sleeve, such as bond duration and sectors, that is why I paid them for.
【在 R***n 的大作中提到】
: Are you concerned about their high bond holding in the rising interest
: environment?
:
: me
| S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 22 Numerous studies? Well it takes only single one **solid** study to settle it
, millions of results from intellectually laziness and imcompetence and
borderline dishonest studies do nothing but garbage in garbage out.
I am still waiting one study that compares asset weighted performance of
index funds and active-managed funds when high ER funds (say, 100 basis
point higher than index fund) and closet index funds are discarded. I am not
holding my breath.
【在 s********z 的大作中提到】
: 我不推崇任何broker，谁最便宜我用谁。
: 我用TD Ameritrade，因为我开户就能拿20k SPG，值500刀，另外可以免费trade 100多
: 个etf，其实我都买了vanguard的etf.
: 无数研究证明active是不能long term beat market的，大家还是飞蛾扑火。
| R***n
发帖数: 25 | 23 I sold all my bonds recently and now held 20% in cash. I'm looking
opportunities to buy Fidelity High Income (SPHIX) or Fidelity New Markets
Income (FNMIX) or Fidelity Strategic Income (FSICX).
my
for.
【在 S**C 的大作中提到】
: I do not have VWINX, but some VWELX. It is just a piece of my portfolio, my
: bond allocation is lower, and bond universe is not just treasury. While
: VWELX is pretty much fixed allocation fund, they do change makeup in their
: bond sleeve, such as bond duration and sectors, that is why I paid them for.
|
|
