w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 1 Hey guys,
I've been tracking the price of ON's 100% casein for a week now. I
originally had my mind on the regular "non natural" casein. It's going for $
38.07 with S&S in chocolate supreme & creamy vanilla and I was waiting for
it to go down a few until I bit. I just checked the price on the Chocolate
Creme NATURAL version of this for $37.31 w/ S&S.
Obviously it's cheaper than the normal casein and some people like this more
because it doesn't use artificial sweetners. It uses Honey Powder and
... 阅读全帖 |
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 2 Link:
http://www.amazon.com/Optimum-Nutrition-Casein-Protein-Vanilla/
Amazon has Optimum Nutrition 100% Casein Protein in the French Vanilla
flavor available as a 2-pack of 2 lb. containers for $31.81, and then it
drops down to $27.04 after Subscribe and Save. Shipping is free, so it comes
out to $6.76/lb. of casein protein, which is a good deal.
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 3 Been waiting for a good deal on ON Casein Cookies and Cream like me? Amazon
has a 2-pack of 2 pound Optimum Nutrition 100% Casein Protein Cookies and
Cream for $31.81 (4 pounds total). It doesn't show up as a "Pack of 2"
until it's in your cart. Linky: Link:
http://www.amazon.com/Optimum-Nutrition-Casein-Protein-Cookies/
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a***a
发帖数: 40617 | 4 号称是从多种蛋白来源来的蛋白，也是缓释类型，相对casein单一蛋白来源（牛奶）
可能spectrum更全面
反正现在casein，whey都涨价了，这些fancy的东西也不显得贵了，几乎一罐价
这个里面还有dietary fibers |
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 6 Link:
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/store/elite-casein.html
Shipping is $5.99 or free on orders over $99.
So one tub is $41.98 shipped. Two tubs are $38.99 each, shipped. And if you
buy three or more tubs it's just $35.99 per tub. Great deal for casein.
Credit to Supplement Deals for finding this.
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s******u
发帖数: 125 | 7 看一下成分表上指标，我睡前吃fat free 的 cottage cheese, 主要成分就是casein。 |
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a***a
发帖数: 40617 | 8 因为算了一下，吃greek yogurt或者cottage cheese代替，成本跟买casein基本
相当，cottage cheese还吃进去很多额外的sodium，太不划算了
想人性化一点儿都不行啊 |
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u******a
发帖数: 7843 | 9 买粉肯定比买whole foods便宜吧. 不过casein是惊人的难吃... |
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J*L
发帖数: 2659 | 10 我觉得on的casein banana cream 味道的还可以呀，现在放杯子里了，准备冲水来喝 |
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 12 Optimum Nutrition 100% Casein Protein, Natural version (no artificial
sweeteners)
4 pounds (2 pack of 2lb containers)
Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001N4F20K/ref=ox_sc_act_title
I've gotten this for $0.42/oz before under Subscribe and Save, but Optimum
Nutrition is no longer participating in S&S. $0.44 without S&S is lower
than I've seen Amazon sell this stuff.
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c**********0
发帖数: 836 | 13 Update: added English report link
中国年轻父母追捧的雅培奶粉竟然完全不符合国际标准，也未达到中国国家标准。昨天
，第三方机构香港CERResearch公司发布报告称，其送检了从中国市场购买的六个品牌
的婴幼儿配方奶粉，检测结果均不合格，雅培样品是最差的。
□检测结果
六品牌均不合格雅培喜康宝最差
CERResearch从事中国市场的调查和研究，公司 CEO Graham Earnshaw(晏格文)昨
天接受记者采访时称，公司日前从上海和香港购买了六个品牌的婴幼儿配方奶粉，邮寄
到德国一个世界一流的专业检测食品安全的实验室进行成分检测和分析。
“目前，这些样品的检测数据都出来了，我们将这些数据提供给专家，由他们做出
判断”，晏格文表示，目前专家的态度是，检测的6个样品中，没有一个符合中国国家
标准。其中，雅培的样品被检测出是送检样品中最差的一个，完全不符合国际标准，也
未达中国新国标。
>>雅培样品问题
酪蛋白太高疑高温处理
报告指出，根据中国标准，婴幼儿配方奶粉中乳清蛋白与酪蛋白的最低比例不能低
于60%，而雅培的喜康宝一段的最终检测结果为41%... 阅读全帖 |
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z**n
发帖数: 22303 | 14 没有激素，催奶针，就不会有这么大的产奶量。工业化的生产模式下，放心奶就是个经
营者为客户精心打造的童话。牛奶蛋白的主要成分酪蛋白的促进癌细胞发育作用是有强
有力的实验数据支持的，为了健康，少喝点牛奶吧，要喝也喝有机的：
Casein Protein
Casein Protein - The Dangers
Over that last decade or so we have heard much in the media about casein
protein and autistic children. Health food stores even carry products now
that state whether they are “casein free”.
Many autistic children are put on casein and gluten free diets as a form of
treatment, but what about the general population? Should we be concerned
about c... 阅读全帖 |
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z**n
发帖数: 22303 | 15 Casein Protein
Casein Protein - The Dangers
Over that last decade or so we have heard much in the media about casein
protein and autistic children. Health food stores even carry products now
that state whether they are “casein free”.
Many autistic children are put on casein and gluten free diets as a form of
treatment, but what about the general population? Should we be concerned
about casein?
What Is Casein Protein And Why The Fuss?
First of all casein is a protein found in milk and other dairy... 阅读全帖 |
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z**n
发帖数: 22303 | 16 Casein Protein - The Dangers
Over that last decade or so we have heard much in the media about casein
protein and autistic children. Health food stores even carry products now
that state whether they are “casein free”.
Many autistic children are put on casein and gluten free diets as a form of
treatment, but what about the general population? Should we be concerned
about casein?
What Is Casein Protein And Why The Fuss?
First of all casein is a protein found in milk and other dairy products. In
h... 阅读全帖 |
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h********e
发帖数: 88 | 17 帮另一个很有研究精神的妈妈贴的。这里要注意，不少主流医生开始对Gluten Free
Casein Free diet慢慢开始接受，我的医生也是 -她告诉我，她的病人里面有一部分人
试验GFCF之后发现还是有好转的。。但是，下面的信息，仅供参考。在你试验任何饮食
疗法之前，请一定要和你的医生讨论并征得他们的同意！！
ASD孩子饮食疗法diet浅谈
应楼主之邀，可能会有ASD家长对diet兴趣，我想谈谈对ASD孩子的饮食疗法。首先声明
，我只是一位ASD家长，在各种治疗方法里还对diet饮食感兴趣，不是professional。
再者，ASD孩子的各方面症状跨度很大，象其他的疗法一样，并不是diet会对每个ASD孩
子有效。另外，饮食疗法的目的是调整孩子的身体状态，绝没有想要替代其他疗法，而
是希望能更好得配合其他训练治疗。希望能有其他家长和相应领域的同学积极参与讨论。
（一） 几种ASD家长采取的饮食疗法
1. Gluten free, casein free diet (GF/CF diet 禁食含谷蛋白的谷类和奶制品，现
在市场上有较多的替代品)
2. Specific food ... 阅读全帖 |
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t**********s
发帖数: 2832 | 18 不负责任地推测，这传闻不太靠谱。
"Human milk contains two types of proteins: whey and casein. Approximately
60% is whey, while 40% is casein."
cite: http://www.americanpregnancy.org/firstyearoflife/whatsinbreastmilk.html
依然是我不负责任的推测，也许传闻来自这里：
"T. Colin Campbell's The China Study (2006), describes a correlation between
casein administered to rats and the promotion of cancer cell growth when
exposed to carcinogens.[19] A 2001 study suggests another milk protein, whey
protein, but not casein, may play a protectiv... 阅读全帖 |
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z********0
发帖数: 9013 | 19 http://stronglifts.com/milk-post-workout-build-muscle-gains/
Post workout nutrition is crucial for muscle recovery & rehydration. The
common advice is to have whey after a weight lifting session because it’s a
fast protein. You want to get protein in your muscles as fast as you can for
recovery.
Truth or marketing from supplement companies? Fact is that many weight
lifters have used milk as a post workout drink for years. After reading this
post you’ll know why it’s the ultimate post workout foo... 阅读全帖 |
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p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 20 http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articl
Confused about how much protein you need, when you need it, and the best
kinds of protein? The following article answers some of the questions active
people commonly ask about protein.
Protein is a popular topic among both casual exercisers and competitive
athletes, many of whom are confused about how much protein they need, when
they should eat it, and the best kinds of protein to choose. The following
article answers some of the q... 阅读全帖 |
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b***i
发帖数: 10018 | 21 貌似这位美女也是有目的的...
http://www.vegsource.
com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-den
ise-minger.html
Reply to Denise Minger
by Dr. T. Colin Campbell, PhD, author The China Study
Ms. Denise Minger has published a critique of our book, The China Study,
as follows.
The China Study: Fact or Fallacy? by Denise Minger - article found at:
http://bit.ly/9s5pn8
It is both interesting and gratifying that there has been such a huge
response, both on her blog and on those of others... 阅读全帖 |
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s**********h
发帖数: 436 | 22 来自主题: NextGeneration版 - 关于奶粉 Agree with Xiaoyan12.
Also, even though baby's only organic is supposed to be among the best in
the US market, the whey to casein ratio is 18:82, just like cow milk. For
infant formula, the whey to casein ratio is normally 60:40. Human breast
milk whey to casein ratio changes over time, it can start with 80:20, and
change to 60:40, and 50:50, as the baby grows older.
I'd suggest European formula for infants. The organic formula in the U.S.
are not truly organic. |
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f****2
发帖数: 311 | 23 牛奶，谎言与内幕
作者：蒂埃里•苏卡
Thierry Souccar
译者：陈懿祯
出版社：商周出版
出版日期： 2007年10月27日
语言：繁体中文ISBN：9789861249421
牛奶，真的能让你喝出一身病！
没错，牛奶能让你在三十岁达到骨密度的高峰，代价却是中老年以后骨质多孔的风险喝
牛奶就像替细胞安装了加速器，它让你长得又高又壮，却也加速肿瘤的生长！是谁绑架
了你的健康，你还能装作不知道吗？
这本大爆食品工业内幕的书将会使你大开眼界！作者锁定农产食品市场区块的最大种类
——乳制品大胆挑战，揭露这个庞大产业试图隐瞒的内幕。
这本书包含了科学证据和国际级的好资料，很难找到漏洞来攻击作者的论点。通过这本
书将能了解到因过量摄取牛奶中的生长因数所产生的全部坏处，甚至会看到过量摄取乳
制品可能会让骨质疏松症的病情更严重这一情况。作者以研究作为支持，披露乳品工业
和营养学论述是如何运用一些错误的观念来诱导大众购买越来越多的牛奶的。然而，究
竟牛奶的营养价值到底为何？是否真的喝越多越好？这本书也从正反两方面的研究数据
来告诉大家真相。
作者的意图不在于告诉大家不要喝牛奶，而... 阅读全帖 |
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 25 quote
Description: ELITE Gourmet is the perfect blend of Ion-Exchange Whey Protein
Concentrates, Whey Protein Isolates, and Whey Peptides, combined with Milk
Protein rich in natural micellar caseines & caseinates plus added calcium
caseinates. By combining these extraordinary and top quality protein sources
Elite Gourmet satisfies your tastebuds & your protein diet needs in one
delicious shake.
ELITE GOURMET PROTEIN contains high levels of Glutamine and Glutamine
Peptides as well as substantial |
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f*******y
发帖数: 8358 | 26 你们的父母没有知识，所以你们就没有知识。
很多人吃地沟油还能活呢。你把自己比作蟑螂，真是无语
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17664905
The feeding of cow's milk has adverse effects on iron nutrition in infants
and young children. Several different mechanisms have been identified that
may act synergistically. Probably most important is the low iron content of
cow's milk. It makes it difficult for the infant to obtain the amounts of
iron needed for growth. A second mechanism is the occult intestinal blood
loss, which occurs in about 40% of ... 阅读全帖 |
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f*******y
发帖数: 8358 | 27 傻逼，没有知识就不要到处卖弄自己的愚蠢
Although cow's milk is the basis of almost all infant formula, plain cow's
milk is unsuited for infants because of its high casein content and low whey
content, which may put a strain on an infant's immature kidneys, and
untreated cow's milk is not recommended before the age of 12 months. The
infant intestine is not properly equipped to digest non-human milk, and this
may often result in diarrhea, intestinal bleeding and malnutrition.[35] To
reduce the negative effect on the ... 阅读全帖 |
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s**********h
发帖数: 436 | 28 I have the same concern for the added DHA and ARA. Baby's Only doesn't have
that. The version that has it derived DHA and ARA differently. Another
ingredient that's too high in Baby's Only is phosphorus. Its whey/casein
ratio is 18/82 (from their customer service email), close to cow's milk.
Infant formula and human milk normally has whey/casein ratio to be 60/40.
I did the research about a year ago. The values may have changed now. You
should probably do your own research. |
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M***y
发帖数: 2252 | 29 俺现在除了postworkout都吃casein。。因为casein剩太多了。。 |
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m******i
发帖数: 9479 | 30 今年的新paper
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22330017
所以说重训的日子睡觉之前吃点dairy吧~
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2012 Aug;44(8):1560-9. doi: 10.1249/MSS.
0b013e31824cc363.
Protein ingestion before sleep improves postexercise overnight recovery.
Res PT, Groen B, Pennings B, Beelen M, Wallis GA, Gijsen AP, Senden JM, VAN
Loon LJ.
Source
Department of Human Movement Sciences, NUTRIM School for Nutrition,
Toxicology and Metabolism, Maastricht University Medical Centre+, Maastricht
, The Netherlands.
Abstract
INTRO... 阅读全帖 |
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j******n
发帖数: 871 | 31 首先肝昏迷即肝性脑病的病因是不清楚的。
但医生和营养师都有一套理论或者推断，
就是假设蛋白质的代谢产生的氮化物对神经系统的毒害，
以前对肝昏迷的饮食是以低蛋白质为主的，
但是后来发现低蛋白质，身体会分解体内蛋白，同样产生氮化化物，
而且病人因为没有足够的蛋白质补充，体质会变差。
现在基本上是要保证一定蛋白质摄入。
至于蛋白质的吸收时间，也不是完全定论，
但在低蛋白摄入情况，身体分解自身蛋白质取得必须的氨基酸是确定的，
蛋白质进入人体分解成氨基酸进入血液的时间不是恒定的，
有的蛋白质比如casein慢，whey快，直接吃氨基酸那是最快，
氨基酸血液浓度肯定和摄入有关，但并不单纯依赖于饮食，
因为身体分解自身的蛋白质，所以这里只能推测大概的时间，
现在研究还不断做，但是这些研究都不是很critical了，
一般共识是蛋白质通过饮食摄入，大概三四个小时进入血液，如果被人体利用
就组成人体蛋白质了，如果没有组成人体蛋白质，就会转化成脂肪储存。
氨基酸转化成脂肪，但脂肪不能转化成氨基酸或蛋白质，这就是所谓蛋白质无法被身体
储存。
bodybuilder一般在晚上要吃casein或者其他的缓慢吸收... 阅读全帖 |
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 33 You can get 12 BAGS of the "Enjoy Life Semi-Sweet Chocolate Chips 10 oz" for
only $4.79 + $7.78 shipping. Only $1.05 per bag shipped! Chocolate chips
are big bucks these days. This is a great price if you like to make your
own chocolate chip cookies... especially if you have food allergies.
CLICK HERE
NO TRANS FAT, NO ARTIFICIAL INGREDIENTS, VEGAN, KOSHER PAREVE, GLUTEN-FREE,
CASEIN-FREE - gluten-free, dairy-free, peanut-free, tree-nut free, soy free,
egg free and casein-free
to Hip2Save for ... 阅读全帖 |
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w*******y
发帖数: 60932 | 34 Previously posted the NOW whey isolate deal on Friday (link here) but also
found this at an even better price if you are looking for a higher end whey
concentrate/isolate blend. Decided to share this when I saw the Muscle Milk
at Costco up to $39.99 for the 6 lb bag this weekend - this has it beat on
price and quality (and is not grossly sweet!).
6 lb. containers of the Dutch Chocolate are currently 46% off (the natural
is $10 higher, sorry)... Link Here:
http://www.supersup.com/now-foods-sports... 阅读全帖 |
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s*******2
发帖数: 499 | 35 美国的食品安全远没你说的那么好。
FDA曾经论证过牛奶中的激素在人体内能迅速降解，因此不会对人体造成伤害。
可是，它们的试验结果和结论恰恰相反。
很多科研工作者发表论文来证明在casein存在的情况下，激素在人体不会迅速降解。
FDA仍然不修改结论。 |
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M1
发帖数: 2038 | 36 Wax Coating on Fruits and Vegetables
Conventionally grown fruits and vegetables are often waxed to prevent
moisture loss, protect them from bruising during shipping, and increase
their shelf life. When purchasing non-organic fruits and vegetables, you
should ask your grocer about the kind of wax used on their surface even if
you are going to peel it; carnauba wax (from the carnauba palm tree),
beeswax, and shellac (from the lac beetle) are preferable to petroleum-based
waxes, which contain solve... 阅读全帖 |
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l********e
发帖数: 3632 | 37 The most commonly used infant formulas contain purified cow's milk whey and
casein as a protein source, a blend of vegetable oils as a fat source,
lactose as a carbohydrate source, a vitamin-mineral mix, and other
ingredients depending on the manufacturer.In addition, there are infant
formulas using soybean as a protein source in place of cow's milk (mostly in
the United States and Great Britain) and formulas using protein hydrolysed
into its component amino acids for infants who are allergic to... 阅读全帖 |
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发帖数: 1 | 38 楼主得出荒谬结论，在于没有上网搜索一分钟就可以得到的知识:
没错，“油彩画”是在1400年产生的，但在这之前，西方绘画与“油彩画”非常接近，
只不过用的不是稳定的Oil媒介，而是用egg tempera,tempera等，一直可以追述到公元
前一万年以上到洞穴绘画。那时就有了西方画笔叫Brush。在用油画之前，西方调和剂
用gum arabic, animal glu, animal fat, and casein，而中国从古至今只知道用水调
和，笨不笨？。
也就是说，在油画出现之前，西方用的颜料媒介是很多的，而中国只用水（最简单的头
脑都想得出来用水调和），中国水笔太软不能用于西方各种绘画，西方使用的笔比中国
早几千年，品种也比中国多得多。而且西方写字的笔与绘画笔是不同的，中国是相同的
笔。与笔相比，调和剂复杂的多，西方的调和剂有较大进化，虽然笔也有进化。
从这个例子也可以看出，西方对古人嗤之以鼻，不断改进他们的方法，而中国人却崇拜
古人一成不变“博大精深”，实际上是“too naive”
https://www.britannica.com/art/brush-art
https:... 阅读全帖 |
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d****2
发帖数: 6250 | 39 Lactose is a water-soluble molecule. Therefore, fat percentage and the
curdling process have an impact on which foods may be tolerated. After the
curdling process, lactose is found in the water portion (along with whey and
casein), but is not found in the fat portion. Dairy products which are "fat
reduced" or "fat free" generally have a slightly higher lactose percentage.
Additionally, low fat dairy foods also often have various dairy derivatives
such as milk solids added to them to enhance swee... 阅读全帖 |
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c*********e
发帖数: 16335 | 40 下面是link.大概说的是，奶牛的食物里加了rBGH,一种重组的牛生长激素，可能会致癌
。建议买walmart的great value牛奶，没用这个激素。
http://www.prevention.com/food/healthy-eating-tips/7-foods-shou
Milk produced with artificial hormones
Rick North, project director of the Campaign for Safe Food at the Oregon
Physicians for Social Responsibility and former CEO of the Oregon division
of the American Cancer Society, gives us the scoop:
The problem: Milk producers treat their dairy cattle with recombinant bovine
growth hormone (rBGH or rBST, as it is als... 阅读全帖 |
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j****i
发帖数: 496 | 41 Thanks for your reply. I'm not in the medical field, but I am forced to
read a lot because of my son's condition. He has autism which causes all
the problems with his gut. This kind of food intolerance is actually not
rare among autistic children. High cholestrol is also commonly seen in kids
with autism. We've already been on gluten-free casein-free diet for a
while. But we haven't eliminated trace amount of wheat in cooking sauce.
Now his report comes back and his sensitive level to whe |
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M********8
发帖数: 3837 | 42 我以前看到过一个妈妈写的从怀孕到出生，Colic, GERD到Autism，对我很有启发。里
面提到的医生以及书籍，我都记录下来，并且看了书，身体力行，很推荐。
http://tttan.com/HT/boards/P.voc/1248284509.html
我的宝宝第一个月的时候也是啼哭不止，完全是非正常的，只要不是喝奶的时候就在哭
，每天睡觉少过8小时，基本上是吃，哭、吃、哭，小睡。我一直不相信colic的说法，
认为只是没有细心找到原因，后来我读了这篇文章，开始严格地戒奶制品、豆类制品，
宝宝好像换了一个人似的，每天哼哼几声就算了，皮肤的湿疹也有很大的改善，现在完
全康复了。
戒奶制品豆类品，要非常小心陷阱，因为奶制品豆类品已经深入美国食品的每一个产业
链，你要不是自己家里从原材料开始，基本上不能避免。奶制品中的牛奶蛋白有很多名
称，whey, casein, lactalbumin等等，只要你买processed food你根本避无可避。99%
的美国调味料都有黄豆蛋白。这些过敏体质的小孩，对于即使那么一点点漏网之鱼，也
会难以忍受。有一次我买了Trader Joe's的咖喱酱 |
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i*******6
发帖数: 234 | 43 BREAST CANCER, RBGH AND MILK
A study of U.S. women published May 9 in the LANCET links
insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) with breast cancer.[1,2]
Earlier this year a study linked IGF-1 to prostate cancer.[3]
(See REHW #593.) Prostate and breast cancers are major killers
of men and women in the U.S. and in other industrialized
countries. IGF-1 levels are now being artificially increased in
much of the cows' milk being sold throughout the U.S. These new
cancer studies raise serious questions ab... 阅读全帖 |
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j**d
发帖数: 825 | 44 你还吃了什么呢？米饭还是面粉主食？有没有什么调料，比较姜蒜，酱油，之类的东西
，如果是母乳，你吃什么，孩子也差不多会吸收什么。
nutramigen 里面有 46% corn syrup, about 25 percent vegetable oil and
consisting of a mixture of palm, coconut, soy and sunflower oils. 17% casein
hydrolysate (essentially protein-reduced cow's milk) at 17 percent and
modified corn starch at 7 percent. The rest of the ingredients come in at
less than 2 percent of the composition and consist mostly of vitamins (A, D3
, E, K1, B6 and B12).
也许你的孩子对其中的成分也过敏，你可以试试看 Elecare,我孩子严重过敏，吃这个
没问题。 |
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I********k
发帖数: 1074 | 45 The most commonly used infant formulas contain purified cow's milk whey and
casein as a protein source, a blend of vegetable oils as a fat source,
lactose as a carbohydrate source, a vitamin-mineral mix, and other
ingredients depending on the manufacturer.
刚刚wiki的。:) 只是蛋白质来自牛奶。 |
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w******0
发帖数: 4472 | 46 那其他的东西就来自于石油了？
你知道现在化工业的原材料是石油吧？
The most commonly used infant formulas contain purified cow's milk whey and
casein as a protein source, a blend of vegetable oils as a fat source,
lactose as a carbohydrate source, a vitamin-mineral mix, and other
ingredients depending on the manufacturer.
刚刚wiki的。:) 只是蛋白质来自牛奶。 |
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m*a
发帖数: 4927 | 47 我家这只很挑，换了好几种维生素之后他终于愿意吃Kirkman的Children's Chewable
Multi-Vitamin/Mineral Wafers with Xylitol了。Kirkman是很著名的营养品牌子。这
款维生素不含容易过敏的东西，也没有人工色素和味素。Free Of Casein, gluten,
soy, wheat, milk, egg, yeast, artificial colorings, artificial flavorings,
peanuts or tree nuts。我家孩子太喜欢吃了，整天都喊着要。汗。对了，这是需要咬
碎的，就跟吃小饼干一样。
Many customers of Kirkman® have requested a second version of our Children’s Chewable Multi-
Vitamin/Mineral Wafer but without artificial sweeteners. As a result, Kirkman® has developed Chil... 阅读全帖 |
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